The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Rod Dreher wrote “to order the world rightly as Christians requires regarding all things as pointing to Christ”
Christ is the One in Whom in all things consist and humanity is not the measure of all things. If a defining characteristic of the modern world is disorder then the most fundamental act of resistance is to discover and life according to the deep, divine order of the heavens and the earth.
In this series we want to look at the big model of the universe that the Bible and Christian history provides.
It is a mind and heart expanding vision of reality.
It is not confined to the limits of our bodily senses - but tries to embrace levels fo reality that are not normally accessible or tangible to our exiled life on earth.
We live on this side of the cosmic curtain - and therefore the highest and greatest dimensions of reality are hidden to us… yet these dimensions exist and are the most fundamental framework for the whole of the heavens and the earth.
Throughout this series we want to pick away at all the threads of reality to see how they all join together - how they all find common meaning and reason in the great divine logic - the One who is the Logos, the LORD Jesus Christ - the greatest that both heaven and earth has to offer.
Colossians 1:15-23
The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Episode 105 - Holy Debates: When One Monk Saved Marriage for Priests
What if the most revolutionary aspects of the Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the divinity of Christ? While most Christians know about the Nicene Creed, few realize the council also issued practical rulings that would challenge most modern Christian assumptions about money, worship, and relationships.
The council's prohibition against clergy charging interest stands in stark contrast to our interest-based economy. When Christians needed money to start a business, they were expected to receive it without profit motives attached, creating relationships of mutual support rather than exploitation. This reveals a radical economic vision where Christians operated as family rather than business partners—a perspective that challenges claims that Western capitalism has strong Christian foundations.
Equally surprising is the council's stance on worship posture: Christians were mandated to stand, not kneel, during Sunday prayers. This "anti-Nicene" practice has been reversed in many modern churches without any awareness of the original tradition. The canons also reveal surprising diversity in early church practices, with some regions allowing deacons to distribute communion before bishops—something the council sought to standardize while acknowledging Scripture didn't definitively settle the matter.
Perhaps most compelling is the story of Paphnutius, a desert monk who had been tortured for his faith. When bishops proposed prohibiting married clergy from having relations with their wives after ordination, Paphnutius single-handedly opposed the measure. Though celibate himself, he argued that "for the married, sex is chastity" and that faithful marriage was equally holy as monastic celibacy. His moral authority was so great that the entire council relented.
These forgotten canons reveal an early Christianity that was both principled and flexible, wrestling with how to embody Christ's teachings across diverse contexts. By exploring this neglected wisdom, we gain fresh insight into how the cosmic reign of Christ might reshape our economic relationships, worship practices, and understanding of holiness today. What other ancient Christian wisdom might be waiting to challenge our modern assumptions?
The theme music is "Wager with Angels" by Nathan Moore
Okay, welcome to the next episode of the Christ-Centered Cosmic Civilization. I'm joined by PJ once again. He's almost like he's on it more than I am this time the podcast. But he's from the Global Church History Project and if you haven't checked that out, do so. Go have a look at the posts on Facebook or just go, just look it up and you'll find it. And if you can go on the patron of it, you'll find a vast wealth of resources there.
Speaker 1:But what we're doing is actually we're still in the Council of Nicaea, looking at the wisdom that they had to share after they brought the creed out, the creed out, and we've been finding a tremendous amount of wisdom and challenge, uh, about how be serious about following the christ, the, the divine emperor christ, with his cosmic civilization. If we're, if this is true, and he really is this the god man who reigns at supreme, at the right hand of the father, in the engine room of reality, and in other episodes we've thought about how he sustains language, maths, music, chemistry, biology Everything flows out from him, for him. He holds it all together. He has died for us, risen for us, ascended for us and he's going to return us. Risen for us, ascended for us and he's going to return. If all this is true, then everything is meaningless, worthless compared to serving him. Serving him, loving him, worship him, and they believe that anyway. Back at the Council of Nicaea, and they took that seriously. And if people were to deny Christ, as we thought in the last episode, that had to be taken very seriously because of what insanity would cause a person to go back to the vomit of the world, the flesh and the devil, compared to the ambrosia, the food of the gods, which is Christ with his body and his blood. So all of that's in our minds and we actually have ended up not rushing through all the wisdom in the post-creed wisdom sharing that happened at the Council of Nicaea. So we've thought about how, decision about where you're going to serve the Lord in church. You can't be driven by selfish ambition.
Speaker 1:But here's an interesting one it's kind of related to it where they said clergy cannot lend, cannot be trying to make money. So it says this many clergy members pursuing greed and vile profit have forgotten the scripture which says and it's Psalm 15, 5, he does not lend his money for interest. And so they have demanded percentages when they lend money, have demanded percentages when they lend money. And so the Holy Great Council found it right that anyone discovered taking interest on a loan or trying to make money from a business loan or anything like that. Sometimes they say even demanding half as much. Again, you know huge interest rates, but any interest rates if they do that and are trying to make the doing stuff for what they call vile profit or greedy gain.
Speaker 1:And you'll remember that in Exodus 18, when Moses is looking for church leaders, moses only has two criteria for a church leader, and it is that they fear the Lord and they're not out for greedy gain. And then the Apostle Paul. When he makes these sort of lists in Timothy and Titus, though, he's obviously drawing from Moses in Exodus 18, because he always has at the core of it people cannot be in this for money. They can't be in this for money, and so that's what's said here. So if it's found that people are in it for money, they shall be removed from the clergy. What do we think about that?
Speaker 2:I think it's interesting how it so. It starts by saying there's some clergy who are doing this and then later says if anyone does this so it's saying we there should be.
Speaker 2:It should have been the standard where no christians are trying to make money off each other. But we've found even clergy are doing right. So what we've got to do is start by getting the worst offenders, these clergy, and making a big example out of them and hopefully the rest of christian society. And now, you know, this is kind of kind of the birth of christendom. There have been some christian rulers before considine, but this is kind of where it gets serious.
Speaker 2:And then you start getting lots of monarchs all over the world, uh, who are christian. So they're like right, we have to take this seriously, because now we're kind of getting into a phase where it's a bit like israel again, where it's like the whole society has to be christian and we've all now got to be priests to all nations by everyone acting out the right way, and interest is just not it. Christians can't be doing this. And so when you you do have some banks in the medieval period, but uh, it was only after the sort of Renaissance and stuff they start doing interest again, because then they start repaganizing. But for the vast majority it's just like genuinely, do you need money to start a business? Because you need this business for your livelihood. Let's just give you the money and you pay us back when you can, wow it's so sweet, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's like actually believing in people, and what's good about that is that you would be much more careful, I guess. So if a person just says I need this amount of money for a business, if you're gonna just give them that money and they can pay back when you can and you're not out to make money up, you might take more of an interest at the beginning and say, okay, ok, hang on, let's look at this together, let's think this through, let's get wisdom on this, and then, because we're in it together kind of thing, whereas if you're just trying, if it's just about making money off them, it's not, you don't need to be as involved, and it's like a different kind. It's moving from a relationship that's personal and inside church as a family relationship because within church everyone's family to an impersonal relationship which isn't family, and that is this huge shift of culture, isn't it? It's funny, a lot of these things that we're looking at. I meet people who go looking at it's. I meet people, uh, who go. Oh, I think it's very important that we absolutely embody the nicene tradition and in the past, I what what? I? I've just accepted. I'm like, oh, okay, and what that? Because what they mean by it is something like I want a kind of or I'm advocating quite a philosophical definition of the being of God, or divine simplicity or some such nonsense. And then, but if you were there, like this, you know, say in August or something in Nicaea in 325, and embodying the Nicene tradition is things like this so yeah, of course the creed, but they'd already had creeds like it for more than a hundred years and things before. So they're confessing the trinity and the deity of Jesus. I mean Constantine at the beginning of the council goes well, we all know that. But this sort of stuff is part of the Nicene tradition.
Speaker 1:To say no to loaning with interest in a Christian culture, a Christian family, but in fact, in a weird way, the kind of Western world that's supposed to have been based on Christianity. People are often saying that at the moment, the Tom Holland thesis, that like, oh, that like, oh, well, everything you know, the western world. Well, what he's really saying is it's been more influenced by christianity than any other influence. More and okay, fair enough. But in finances has it? Hasn't it not embodied using, you know for, for greed, the greed is good is, some people have said that. Now we might, you know, for greed. The greed is good, as some people have said that Now we might want to examine that more, but this is challenging, isn't it? So Psalm 15, 5, do not lend money for interest. It's in the law of course as well, where it's explicitly said you can't do that within the church family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, another one of these little rules here. This one is interesting because of what it tells us about church practice at the time and what they thought they should do going forward. Listen, just pay attention. Everyone. It says here it's come to the attention of the Holy Great Council that in certain regions or cities, deacons give the Eucharist to priests. So, just so we're clear on that. So a deacon, that's like a servant in the church who, if you take it really from Acts, that's a person who would be handing out tea and coffee and making you know, dealing with looking after the practical side of church life. Nowadays, lots of people kind of fulfill those sorts of roles though, because nowadays deacon kind of just means a clergy person in training.
Speaker 2:But in the, in the Bible it's not necessarily, it's not really, that's not necessarily how it is. And we note, like the seven original deacons that are appointed by the 12 apostles, they were said to be Christians already for a long time. And Jesus says at one point everyone but the apostles have abandoned me. So in order to be a Christian for a long time, these have to be one of the 12 or 72. And so they're probably 72, because these are different names. So these are people who are at the highest level of the clergy rank and they decide to then become deacons. So it's not an in-training thing, they'd already been trained by the living.
Speaker 2:God Very powerful point.
Speaker 1:That isn't it. They were because, yeah, they already are apostles, kind of yeah, and yet they take this role of deacon to serve at tables. Literally, the original definition of it is you were going to be a waiter at a table to look after the church family and like real, and a lot of deacons are like putting this sort of stuff into practice.
Speaker 2:So like um, athanasius, as an archdeacon he's kind of looking over because they took on monetary kind of bonds and loans and stuff for egyptian farmers. So at that time the coptic papacy controlled all grain, which might pop up a bit later, yeah, um, but athanasia is doing that. We're basically just got farmers in debt and they're like, oh, I don't know what to do, and athanasia is just finding out the funds, taking on all the kind of financial responsibilities so they can just focus on farming and then that sort of stuff. That's kind of what Athanasius like really practical, the hard facts of life lifting people out of poverty, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:That's kind of what deacons are doing, and so partly this is like just saying let's just see if we can get everyone focusing on what God's telling them to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it is interesting because it's then deacons, very practical, waiting at tables helping people with the practical problems of life, not really a very, very different kind of calling to the priest person who is very much more focused on sacraments and preaching and things like that. Now then, so this council says it has come to the attention of the Holy Great Council that in certain regions or cities deacons give the Eucharist to priests. And then they add though neither church law nor custom has taught that those without authority to sacrifice they may not give the body of Christ to those who do sacrifice. And then they say we also learn that some deacons touch the Eucharist before even the bishops, and this has to be completely abolished. Deacons should remain within their proper sphere, knowing they are servants of the bishop and inferior to priests. Now, that final bit I'm not totally cool with, because it's like that hierarchy and you're like it's not totally like a deacon is a different sphere. But if you're putting them in that it's as if, like deacons are, are like on the way up a ladder and then gonna're going to go be priests, we've already said no, it isn't really like that, it's a different sphere, and they and they're actually here, I notice that they don't say the bible says you should, deacon shouldn't do this. They're saying our tradition hasn't had us.
Speaker 1:So you can see, first of let's note this they're getting together churches from all over the world and some of the churches are saying, hey, yeah, no, our lay assistants, they give out Holy Communion. They're effectively lay people because they later describe deacons sometimes as kind of like lay people. So some churches are having a practice where deacons whatever is the exact status or definition of a deacon around the world, they are ordained in for most churches, but it's this interesting role. But they are principally dealing with practical matters, not word and sacrament matters principally are distributing holy communion and therefore, and would be handling that like before a bishop would. And this is considered like a big problem at nicaea, isn't it because they're like whoa, hang on like there's a what?
Speaker 1:And interestingly though and I want to re-emphasize this they're not saying the Bible says deacons can't do, because the Bible itself doesn't really give very much information at all about how the Eucharist is to be performed and whether deacons are the ones handing it out or performing it or anything like that. But then they're saying but this is our church, law and custom has taught that we should do it differently. So they decide to go. No, deacon shouldn't be, it says here, allowed to sit amidst priests and that they should um be distributing Holy Communion, and if they carry on with that, you should sack them as a deacon. What do you make of all that PJ?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's one of these things. Perhaps they should have worded more cautiously in some senses, I think, because obviously, if you're really thinking about the heavenly celestial hierarchies and it seems as if all the sort of layers of celestial beings are equal, but they are also presented in the hierarchy, in a sense hierarchy properly biblically.
Speaker 1:Oh no, we don't mind hierarchy at all. We love it, don't?
Speaker 2:we.
Speaker 1:We praise it.
Speaker 2:So when it used that word inferior, I suppose someone like Eusebius of Nicomedea or Arius, who are very sort of Greek pagan when, when it used that word inferior, I suppose someone like eusebius of nicomedia or arius, who are very sort of um greek pagan, they will definitely see the word inferior as meaning like moral inferior or that's, rather than just being below in a hierarchy I mean, I suppose the arius would actually say it's ontologically inferior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he goes with that, doesn't he yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, so for him, like, the fact that jesus is sent at all or like he's, you know, in any sense inferior in a hierarchy with the father, means he, you know, you just can't have the ultimate god as in a hierarchy.
Speaker 1:It's like no, like that's sort of certainly not ontologically, yeah so it's just that, yeah, I mean, we understand there is hierarchy, and maybe we shouldn't interrogate these words too closely, but it just is that sense of which they're almost like deacons. It's almost like they're on the way to being priests, but they have to wait until the priest. You're like, no, like it's a different role altogether, but it what.
Speaker 1:It is interesting, though, isn't it that the global church did have deacons doing holy communion and then nicaea's trying to say, no, only presbyters can do that, yeah so it does seem so like the church of the east was very much threefold ministry sort of stuff and that represents the majority of the population.
Speaker 2:It's always worth remembering that. But definitely in Egypt we see much more blurred lines between exactly so like they have priests, ordain bishops and sometimes even later.
Speaker 1:So, priests would ordain bishops? Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:And the Apostle Mark had set up that system where you got the priests of alexandria and they would ordain the coptic pope, right, and and sometimes even roman popes later would allow this sort of thing. They had core bishops who were actually just priests. They haven't had a proper episcopal ordination, um, but sometimes they would allow them to ordain priests and things, so that you know, and that will be centuries after this. So there's often, often it's necessity. In those cases it's necessity there's just not enough bishops and it's like, oh, this guy's here, he's kind of acting like a bishop, let's just let him crack on with it.
Speaker 2:But then later they get like very particular, like no, it doesn't even work. You don't even get that grace from the spirit and you know, if you don't have it, how can you give it sort of thing? That's what St Cyprian asked. So that's even before the council that sort of ideas floating around. So it is very difficult here uniting global perspectives because there are just very difficult situations like necessity and things like culture. And then there's this sort of thing. It's like well, if Mark has the Apostle Mark and he's fantastic, even if the Apostle Paul didn't initially think so, he was proven fantastic If he set up this in Alexandria, which, again, incredible church. There is a real kind of grace from the spirit in what they're doing and so that becomes a question. It's like, well, can we have an absolute sort of statement?
Speaker 1:yeah dogmatic one, when it seems as if, at least in times of accommodating different cultures or necessity and things, rules have been broken just a little bit I think that's important, isn't it that later there's like a kind of absoluteness imposed on church orders and traditions and systems that was not present when we go back to those earlier times, and even in here at the fourth century, there clearly was not global uniformity on this and obviously the spirit is able to use different practices within church, and even they admit the scriptures don't rule absolutely on this.
Speaker 1:But I find sometimes when I talk to people now from different apostolic traditions, they talk as if these things are absolute, absolute and inviolable, and I'm like, yeah, but again, not in the Nicene tradition. In the Nicene tradition there is this sense that, well, there was a little bit more fuzziness about it. Anyway, there's just a little note about those that were joining the Catholic Church from the faction of Paul of Samosata. They had to be rebaptized, which is indicative that we were struggling to find out exactly what it was that he was saying that was so heretical. We were struggling to find out exactly what it was that he was saying that was so heretical, and he could either be a Unitarian or a Tritheist or something. But whatever he was saying, the thing they say is they have to be baptized again, which does indicate that whatever baptism they'd received, the Paulinists was not a Trinitarian baptism.
Speaker 2:That seems to be the case, yeah and it's definitely crucial for them because, uh, this whole word at homoousius was brought up in the council because eusebius of nicomedea was like right, we're all. There was a nearly ecumenical council on antioch and that said we can't use the word homoousius because paul used it. And then, uh, so he uses it, and now they've gone with homoousius. So it's very important for them to really come down hard on Paulism, because it's like that is.
Speaker 1:Confusing this yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like that's still all wrong, but when they said they're the same thing, they meant it in the wrong way. We're using it the right way, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:So you can see why they wanted to just give some wisdom on that. But here it says of what about those who kneel on sundays? Listen, this one. Seeing as some kneel on sunday and the days of pentecost, the holy council thought it appropriate that people stand while offering prayers to the lord, so that everything may be unanimously be observed in the same way in every parish. So that's like an interesting one, isn't it? Because kneeling, now people go. Oh, that's what everyone should be doing. They were actually saying no one should be kneeling. We all should be standing when we're praying.
Speaker 2:Any thought on that. Yeah, it's interesting that trying to keep all Sundays as joyous occasions, as much as like Pentecost, which would only come like once a year, but it's like that, it's like each time you should be like wow, and so there's no room for like humbling yourself, I suppose, except if you're one of those people who prostrate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have to humble themselves every Sunday. But there's just this feeling like at Sunday where we're with angels and archangels, because you think about when Daniel tries to prostrate himself with the archangel Gabriel and he puts him on his feet like this is sort of when we're with angels and archangels. They're like no, no, up you go, we're standing and we're happy, like if anything, instead of mandating kneeling, they, they would mandate skipping and jumping.
Speaker 1:Mandate dancing. But that's interesting, isn't it? That the Nicene manner that they sing, everyone in the world let's stand up when it comes to the prayer times, whereas in my life nearly always it's like let's sit or kneel to pray. That's anti-Nicene, it's an attack, but I found that one interesting. Now, actually, that's anti-nicene, it's an attack, uh on, but that I found that one interesting. Now, actually, that's all of the wisdom. Because after that, uh, eusebius here says um, the same holy assembly wrote these 20 laws. So there's 20 of these laws we've examined over the past two or three episodes um, regulating church government in the presence of the god-loving, praiseworthy emperor constantine lovely, we always like that.
Speaker 1:But you see, then something else just arises and it says ah, but some of the bishops wanted to enact another law, um, and what they were saying was what about clergy, be they bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons or other members of the priesthood? So here there's not just bishops, priests and deacons, they're like, there's other people who are ordained, and that's another thing to explore in another episode, just how many different kind of roles and offices would all be ordained into priesthood of some way. But that's not the thing that's occupying us now. The point is this, that they wanted to make a 21st law that said anyone who was ordained should not sleep with the wives whom they had married when they were lay people. So anyone who was married like. So I think there was generally this idea that once you were ordained you shouldn't get married, but it like the Orthodox are still. That's how the Orthodox are still, like this council in Isaiah today, that don't get married once you've been ordained, but if you're already married, that's fine. That's fine, you can be that. And they go back to the practice of the apostles who had marriages Now.
Speaker 1:But it says some of the bishops wanted to bring you in and go well, hang on. If it's preferable that people be celibate and single and Paul does seem to indicate that in 1 Corinthians 7, and that once you're ordained that you can't get married, then because the idea is you're to be totally devoted to the Lord. So some bishops said well, okay, then, even if you are married after you're ordained, you should live as if you're single and have no relations with your spouse after marriage once if you're ordained. See, so they were saying all, basically, all ordained people, all people in the priesthood, should be celibate, regardless of whether they're married or single. But it says here but godly Paphnious stopped them. What pj this is? I know this is one of your favorite characters. Tell us about him. In the time we have remaining, you can go, just go for it.
Speaker 2:So, uh, yeah, well, one thing that's worth mentioning a lot of early church people we thought about how moses is like the archetype for, like all christians, but especially bishops, priests and deacons, um, and he. So we see, when you're approaching the mount on which god is standing or the tent of meeting, you're not allowed to sleep with your wife for three days beforehand. So they reason if moses is always on the mount or in the temple tent of meeting, he must have been celibate, even though he was married to Zipporah. And that does stand to reason and there's not an easy way around that. Now it does seem as if once he stops trying to escape this ministry in Israel and just embraces it, and then he has to live as this bishop of Israel. He's celibate even though he's married. So that was a quite strong biblical basis for the practice.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's also the apostolic thing, and where Paul does say, as far as he can understand, he's like you should just live as a single, though elsewhere he is like actually, you do get like Peter and the brothers of God, and God's given them grace to still just travel with their wives and everything just fine. And I don't understand that because I've not been given that. So there's that where often you're picking one or two verses and you're not looking at all of it. So there's a bit of that going on. But yeah, this paphnucius guy, he was incredible, paphnucius the stubborn he gets called. So he's the only guy who opposed this law. Because saint hosius we thought about him before he's that spaniard. He's representing the pope. He'd already called a council where he says, yeah, everyone's got to do the moses thing, which is almost always a good thing. Well, you know, do the m thing if you just say it out loud.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, obviously, whatever that is, we'll do it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So he says that so that you know, everyone wants their in the clergy have to be celibate even if they're married. But this Paphnutius is the only guy who goes against it. And I think that's interesting because we thought about St Spyridon, spiradon. He's married, he loves his wife loads, they've had loads of kids and everything. But then he's at this point he just thinks, yeah, I guess, because he's super humble, spiradon. So he's like I guess hoseus must be right, I think, you know he's more holy than me and he's you know. So he just kind of thinks that's it, it's over for me and I forget what his wife's call. But he's like, yeah, yeah, it's over and he's just about to accept it. And then this Paphnutius comes to the rescue and I think it's very interesting that you have, um, so Spyridon, incredibly humble, and he's like, yeah, I'm not gonna argue with everyone else because, like, they're just more holier than me and he's that humble, even though he's done all these miracles. We just think, no, they're actually not. And Constantine knows they're not. He knows, uh, spyridon's the most holy, but he's too humble for that.
Speaker 2:So Paphnutius comes in and he was a guy. He had lived in the desert ever since he was a youth. So he's one of these like consecrated virgin people living in the desert. And there's this one story that says he saw two people fornicating out in the wild as he was going on his morning walk, and then he turned his eyes to heaven and prayed for forgiveness for his own lusts. And then an angel appeared and said Paphnutius, all who condemn their brethren perish by the same sword, but you did not judge. You humbled yourself before the face of God as if you had committed this sin. That's why your name is written in the book of life. So he's this incredibly humble person and he you know, totally without judging others and everything. And so that's why Arius lived as what seems to be a similar life to Paphnutius. But he just did it to Paphnutius. He's like I am this because I'm better than you. He wants to say that because that's what he loves being better than other people. So he's not doing it because God's called him to that life. Really, he's just doing it because it makes him look better. But Patnusius is the exact opposite and you can tell God's actually called him to this life because he's doing real good work with it. So he had to leave behind his monastic vocation, because God called him to be the Bishop of Thebes, but he's still super intense even as he's a bishop.
Speaker 2:And then because he's this incredibly holy person and the devil can see that. So him and Aerys seem to be living the same life. But Aerys didn't have any wounds, he'd never been persecuted. Pafnushus he had his eye plucked out, his hamstrings cut everything, so he has to hobble, he can barely see. And he cut everything, so he has to hobble. He can barely see. Uh, he's just. And he's got loads of other scars, so he's just obviously been persecuted.
Speaker 2:Because the devil saw the difference between these two people, someone who lived this life because jesus called them to it and someone who just did it for personal gain. Total difference, so you could see it a mile away the difference between arius and paphnutius. So obviously constantine loved paphnius. He's one of these people he gave a personal invitation to, and we can see almost immediately why. So everyone had to sign these canons for them to be law. And he refused to sign this one because he said for the married sex is chastityity, so it would be unchaste to do that.
Speaker 2:And paul again. So we look at all of paul's stuff, we see that is the case. And so he's just saying, yeah, if you're like peter or james or something, just keep living that way because you can be totally holy. And he's saying you gotta read the whole thing. And, uh, papinusius is, he's a big fan of saint oregon the scholar, and he said something quite similar where he said if a married person loves a married man, loves his wife, he is basically a castrato, just like me, because he could be, because he thinks about circumcision where, like Abraham, had taken another wife or a concubine, because he's like this is the only way to make human beings and this sort of thing, and so he has to cut off, he has to get as close as he can to do what oregon did, because he's like, um, where the lord's like, no, you don't do that. When you're married, you totally give yourself to your wife and that is like being a eunuch. So that's what o Oregon says.
Speaker 1:So it's like it's almost like it's spiritually cutting off the flesh of that part of the body Because you've so brought it under control that it's nullified, kind of yeah, and there's loads of things you could do that you're saying I'm not going to do so.
Speaker 2:he says St Oregon says that is why Jesus mentions it alongside the whole marriage, divorce and remarrying thing. So he says St Oregon says that is why Jesus mentions it alongside the whole marriage, divorce and remarrying thing. So he's saying Christians don't divorce and remarry. You know, in that verse that's what Jesus is saying and he's saying and he puts it alongside this, like making yourself a eunuch thing. So he's saying Christians who just stay loyal to their first wife, like we see in Malachi sort of thing, jesus saying they are eunuchs, yeah, they've made themselves eunuchs. Some people have been made eunuchs out of their control or you know, maybe for health reasons, maybe whatever. But he's jesus saying if you do that, so there's only one kind of christian which is a eunuch. And you can see why. I said oregon would say that. But again, saint oregon's so humble. He's not saying, oh, I'm better because I decided to do it. He's like no, everyone has to do what I did in their own way, in their own way.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, oregon's got an extreme option, which Jesus also offers Chop the lot off. But actually, no, don't do that, you don't need to do that. Rather, everybody, whether you're celibate, single or chaste married, all are kind of eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom. Because all people can bring that kind of part of their body and life and personality completely under the control of christ, and the fleshly power of it is so nullified that they can be given this spiritual title of eunuch, even though they may still have the equipment. Biologically speaking, that equipment has become nullified and brought entirely under the reign of Christ, and so it's been cut off in a fleshly sense.
Speaker 1:And which is why the sacrament of circumcision was on that part of the body? Because it was like Abraham, christ through Abraham, making this incredibly powerful statement that within church, the followers of Christ may be taught how to say no to all the ungodliness and deceitful desires in this present life. And it can. So paphanusius is saying I believe that I believe that christ can set us free from the slavery of the flesh and lusts and things, and that, in fact, um, a godly, married christian couple, are as pure and holy and devout, devoted as the most intense celibate single monk, yeah, yeah absolutely, and you get that when you, all these church fathers, read the 144 000 in revelation as meaning all christians like that kind of 10 000 you know each of them are.
Speaker 2:And then it says they're all virgins because they've not been defiled with women. But it's like well, some of us have been married but then it's like you've not been defiled. You're all virgins in that way. The way that counts, basically, is what oh, that's fabulous.
Speaker 1:And the whole church is this bride, beautifully prepared as a virgin. So there's this way in which there's a different meaning to these things. That's on a deeper, more powerful level. And parvenusius stood up against the entire council of nicaea and, because he was so godly and respected, they went with him and said, nah, nah, he's right, he's called us out on this.
Speaker 2:The.
Speaker 1:Bible is what he's saying, because here Reusabius has him, has Paphnutius declaring Bible verses and they're one round and therefore most of church throughout history has stuck to the Nicene tradition and allowed the possibility of normal married relations for ordained people and that's been a good thing.