The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Rod Dreher wrote “to order the world rightly as Christians requires regarding all things as pointing to Christ”
Christ is the One in Whom in all things consist and humanity is not the measure of all things. If a defining characteristic of the modern world is disorder then the most fundamental act of resistance is to discover and life according to the deep, divine order of the heavens and the earth.
In this series we want to look at the big model of the universe that the Bible and Christian history provides.
It is a mind and heart expanding vision of reality.
It is not confined to the limits of our bodily senses - but tries to embrace levels fo reality that are not normally accessible or tangible to our exiled life on earth.
We live on this side of the cosmic curtain - and therefore the highest and greatest dimensions of reality are hidden to us… yet these dimensions exist and are the most fundamental framework for the whole of the heavens and the earth.
Throughout this series we want to pick away at all the threads of reality to see how they all join together - how they all find common meaning and reason in the great divine logic - the One who is the Logos, the LORD Jesus Christ - the greatest that both heaven and earth has to offer.
Colossians 1:15-23
The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Episode 100 - Holy Shepherds and Philosophical Wolves: The Nicene Showdown
"God was not always a father. The Son is a creature and a work." These words from Arius shocked the Christian world and threatened to redefine the very heart of the faith. Would Christianity become a religion that worshipped a created being rather than the true and eternal God?
Emperor Constantine, newly victorious and eager to strengthen his realm through religious unity, called together the greatest gathering of church leaders the world had ever seen. From the deserts of Egypt to the mountains of Spain, from Persian borders to Gothic tribes beyond the Empire's reach, 318 bishops converged on the city of Nicaea in May of 325 AD. Their mission? To address the theological crisis that threatened to tear apart the Church.
This special 100th episode takes you inside this momentous gathering, drawing on eyewitness accounts to recreate the atmosphere of this world-changing council. You'll discover Constantine's surprisingly profound theological understanding as he opened the proceedings with a speech affirming Christ's divinity. "How should I speak of his pure divine nature," the Emperor declared, "through which he saw that a woman was secretly suffering from an illness and after he let her merely touch him, he restored her to health?"
While most bishops nodded in agreement with Constantine's orthodox assertions, eighteen dissenters – led by Arius and his supporter Eusebius of Nicomedia – bristled at such clear affirmations of Christ's divine nature. Their philosophical objections would force the council to articulate precisely what Christians believe about Jesus' relationship to the Father.
We explore fascinating details often overlooked in historical accounts, including how Constantine dramatically burned the bishops' personal complaints, urging them to "direct all your attention to theology" instead of political disputes. You'll meet figures like Saint Spyridon, the humble shepherd-bishop who demonstrated true Christian humility amidst the theological debates.
Join us for this rich exploration of Christianity's defining moment – a council whose decisions would shape the faith for millennia to come. And stay tuned for upcoming episodes as we continue examining the Nicene Creed and subsequent church councils that built upon this foundation.
The theme music is "Wager with Angels" by Nathan Moore
Well, welcome to the next episode of the Christ-centered cosmic civilization, and we are at episode 100, which you know we've had it when you've been with us since the beginning. You'll know that at the beginning it was very focused on just looking at various topics of like maths, english, art, language, music, things like that, but that we've expanded it out to address wider topics and themes in the Christian faith, all, I hope, trying to get this big picture of the cosmic civilization focused on Jesus, the Father, seated on the throne, as the fountain of the divine life pouring out through the sun by the Spirit and then out there's hundreds of millions of angels and through the heavens, the highest heaven, the second heaven, first heaven, down to us here, and we're always trying to just give ourselves greater clarity about that, the kingdom of God and what it means. And so what we've been doing more recently is looking at the council of Nicaea. More recently is looking at the Council of Nicaea, and the reason we come to what today will be a kind of bumper episode is because not only is it the 100th episode of this podcast, but we're recording it just in the week leading up to the actual date when it all started in May, the 20th of May 325 AD, and we're recording this on the 15th of May in 2025. And so we wanted to do this big bumper episode looking at the events of the council, who was there, constantine's role, the decisions they came to and so on. And then we'll probably do one or two more episodes, just carrying on to explore this council, why it was important, the words they used and the consequences that came from it. And then we're actually contemplating doing a series, not necessarily straight away, but soon, carrying on to look at subsequent councils and how good they were Some we love and, uh, how good they were. Some we love, some we don't love, uh, and you'll, uh, you'll see why. I mean, I don't want to spoil it, but with some and of course, some of the councils were more divisive than others, and so on, but this one, the council of nicaea, is one that we all all real Christians all around the world love, and it's much more straightforward in these first three councils. Anyway, you'll see that. But let's get into this and we've got what we're going to use as a guide to this.
Speaker 1:There's lots of great documents, accounts of what happened at nicaea, pj, pj's with us from the global church history project. Obviously, when it comes to a subject like this, pj, what accounts are there? First of all, be the tell you could tell us about this particular one, which is claimed attributed to Galatius of Syzicus, but may not be, it could just be anonymous, we may not know exactly who wrote this, but there's several accounts aren't there of what happened at Nicaea that are available. Can you tell us anything? First of all, what accounts are there and which ones do you recommend to read? Or is there one particular one that's especially good to read from, like eyewitness accounts really? Yeah, so Eusebius writes quite a lot about it.
Speaker 1:He writes about it in his Life of Constantine because he does consider it one of Constantine's best achievements. So he writes about it there. He's also got a letter he wrote to his church basically saying he under because his church then had a bit of a problem. We thought about this word homoousius, before they had a bit of a problem with that and then he just goes through it explaining why it isn't anything new, it isn't, um, you know, a new doctrine in a way, and and it isn't Sabalianism. We thought before Homoousius was used to defend Sabalianism or Paulism. And he explains how it isn't any of those and he explains. We'll get into exactly what he explains happens.
Speaker 1:And this Eusebius is Eusebius of Caesarea, isn't it? We need to specify that because there's another Eusebius that we're going to come across at the council and he's an idiot. Saint Eusebius of Caesarea, we do love. We quote him all the time. So if we ever talk about Saint Eusebius, we've not become heretical and we're not praising him. So always assume any references to Eusebius that we say are by default going to be this guy Eusebius of Caesarea. If it's the other one and he's Eusebius of Nicomedea, is it? Yeah, and we'll try to always make sure we emphasize that it's that bad one if we're ever speaking about him. But Eusebius, yeah, he does provide a lot of coverage of this council of Nicaea and Constantine's role in it, doesn't he? Yeah, and he is an eyewitness. He was one of these bishops gathered into the Nicene Council, so he's a really important source.
Speaker 1:Athanasius was probably there in some capacity. He doesn't seem to say he was capacity. He doesn't seem to say he was, but there's a book early on called the History of the Aryans and he wrote parts of that book. Other people wrote other parts of it, so he contributed to it. That seems to say he was in it. So that's an early source. So some people think he's just being humble, but he was definitely just a deacon at the time.
Speaker 1:I think he probably was there in some capacity, but I don't think he'll have been there in every session and every, you know, because he's not a bishop, he's not one of the crucial people, but I think Alexander did take him along because he was helpful. A lot of early sources say that and the book I've just finished reading here states it exactly as you've said it, that it's. It's the bishop alexander who's the main person and and athanasius is sort of appended to him. Yeah, yeah. So he's a helpful scribe and secretary and that sort of stuff, but he isn't as of yet an authority. He doesn't speak out all that much um so, but this is when he begins to be known. So he does speak a little and that makes him famous because the fact he was. So he's also an eyewitness, but he's like the Apostle Mark that he wasn't there for all of it. So he has to rely sometimes on some other sources to get the whole picture. But he does certainly think very highly. So a lot of the times he says when the fathers agreed on their articles of faith, they said this, which suggests he wasn't there when they were saying this sort of thing. So I think that is similar to like mark when he describes something peter did that obviously he's not there for, and and he does speak much more in third person there.
Speaker 1:So you, we've got Eusebius' account. We've got another account that Athanasius contributes to. What other accounts are there? What are these three accounts here? So you can read these ones online, there's a Lutheran website called Fourth Century Christianity and that's got loads of sources about exactly what happened. They've got this translation of Galatius. They've got that on there. They've done their own translation, I believe, and that's what we're reading.
Speaker 1:But they've also got a helpful harmony of these three historians that talk about the whole area of controversy and then the Nicene Creed, what happens after, and loads of this history, kind of continuing on from St Eusebius's history. But because there's three different people, they give you different aspects. And it's Socrates, scholasticus, sozoman and Theoderate I think that's St Theoderate and so they all have different details. They've picked up on different things. A lot of times you'll just have one of them has noted one detail. Sometimes all three have something to say about something, but usually in quite different words. So it's very helpful to be able to see different opinions to help triangulate the truth, you know, to try. And so we've got three different opinions, three different witnesses to things. That helps so that and they have them all side by side. They haven't finished a full translation of galatius, so he's not part of the harmony yet, but, uh, you can see what the translated thus far and you can see a full harmony of these three christian scholars right, so that's a really good way into it.
Speaker 1:And there's all kind, there's all kinds of books been written about the nicene creed by modern people and, uh, we might mention some of those in future episodes, but for now, um, we're really going back to kind of these primary sources, trying to hear from the people who were there, either eyewitnesses who were there for the whole of it or people who were partly present at it, feel of what of of it from the people who were there and like following detailed kind of the speeches that, because sometimes there's quite a lot of speeches recorded that happened at the council from both sides, um, from the arians and the philosophers who supported the arias, and then also the bishops who were dealing with them, and we'll listen to some of those speeches and we'll read those out Now. Right at the beginning we're told that it's Constantine, because in book one of this account attributed to Galatius, he just deals with how Constantine won his military campaigns and became the emperor and that's part of church history. To that person, like, constantine's victory and becoming emperor is church history. But and then when he gets to book two, he says therefore, that's how it begins, book two when Constantine was proclaimed sole emperor and obtained absolute power by the assistance God had given him, he promoted the interests of Christians ever more eagerly. He did this in various ways, for and this is this quotation about him ways for and this is this quotation about him Constantine possessed a burning faith as well as a deeply rooted and extremely faithful devotion to the God of all, the whole church under heaven enjoyed profound peace. Now, that may be overstating it a little bit, because there were churches way beyond the Roman Empire to the east that weren't necessarily enjoying profound peace, but we get the point Like it's a very, very strong affirmation of Constantine as a deeply devout Christian man. What do you think about that? Pj? Yeah, absolutely that there is that and he he's got a global mind, so he does certainly want to bring peace around the globe to all Christians and, as we thought, whether or not he's able to totally actuate that and is irrelevant to the fact that he's really trying. And so this particular author is really trying to bring out that fact that it's like what Constantine wants is the good of the absolute global church and once he's become a Christian, that is his focus, and so the empire, in a sense the Roman Empire, is secondary to his goal.
Speaker 1:So there is like an account of St Dimitri of Rostov explains about the life of Theophilus, who was the Gothic bishop who attended, and explains that, actually that you know there was persecution under the Gothic King Athanaric, who was a pagan, to explain all that, so that we do sometimes, if we look at these other sources, get a lot of other opinions. And back in St Dimitri's time there were still books in Gothic describing, you know, gothic church history and stuff which we no longer have access to. So he's also got some like primary sources. But we've got to use him as an intermediary for this other perspective because we've kind of lost it to the ravages of time. But he does explain that. So he talks about Theophilus, who comes with two deacons who later become bishops, st Nicetas and Wulfala, and so those both become quite important later. So those both become quite important.
Speaker 1:Later, wolfler invented the Gothic script and translated the Bible into Gothic and invented the word God, which means Right from got yeah, or I think it's gothy or something, but it means a sacrifice. But it also means the one to whom you are sacrificing oh, wow, that's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, okay, and a priest, you know. So it means all A god is the god it's offered to, the priest who offers it and the sacrifice that is offered. Okay then, I've never been keen on the word god, but now I'm like, oh, if that's what it means. So in that sense, you could not refer to most beings that are called God cannot be because they don't do sacrifices or anything. Yeah, so you can imagine how powerful that would have been for Will, fuller and Theophilus and Nicetas preaching to gods to basically say Thor, isn't it? Yeah, he cannot be a god because there are no sacrifice. Yeah, wow, I'll try to remember that in next time I have a discussion with one of my dear Muslim friends to say, well, you cannot believe in God, because the word God means priest and sacrifice included within it. Anyway, that's not exactly what we're focusing on now. So, yeah, there's Constantine and he calls together this global group of church leaders and we'll think about that in more detail shortly. We'll go into who was actually present, who came to, who was actually present, who came and one of the things that's in this account, that setting up the need of the council and why Constantine. We thought about his letter that Constantine wrote when he was upset about this division. That's happening. But now that we get to the actual, now we've got to have a council. But now that we get to the actual, now we've got to have a council.
Speaker 1:It talks about these evil ideas that Arius has been promoting and this other Eusebius, eusebius of Nicomedia, who abandoned his church of Beirut and kind of became a ringleader. This is described as, but the ones who were apostate and are listed here Arius, achilles, thales, carpinus, another Arius Sarmatus, eusebius, lucius, julius, menas, heladius, gaius, as well as Secundus and Theanus, who were once bishops. So they list them. There's 15 of them in total, of these ones that often get listed, or 18 in total, but we get clear descriptions of what they've been teaching. So brace yourself. Uh, you know, maybe pour yourself either a hot cup of sweet tea or a gin or something.
Speaker 1:Because I'm about to read out the aryan teaching and, uh, it's not, it's 18 certificates, stuff, this. Because, um, this is it. I'm reading from the actual eyewitness account kind of, or earwitness account. These are the kinds of things they have invented and speak contrary to the scriptures. And this, get ready, this is it. I'm going to read it. This is the Arian teaching.
Speaker 1:God was not always a father. Rather, there was a time when God was not a father. The word of God did not always exist. Rather, he came into being. God, who did exist, made one who did not exist from that which did not exist. Therefore, he did not always exist. The sun is a creature and a product, poiema, a work. The sun is a creature and a work. He is not similar he is not homoios in essence, to the Father and by nature, that's physis. So he is not similar, homoios in essence, the true word of the Father, nor his true wisdom. Rather, he, the Son, is one of the created products. He himself came into being by God's own word and by the wisdom which is in God. Right, I'm going to come back to that in a second.
Speaker 1:I'll just finish this quotation of the arian teaching because I don't want us to have to say it too often. They also said this the word now brace yourself as bad as that is it, even if anything gets goes up to 11 in this next bit where they say the word is foreign to, different than and separate from the essence of god. And listen this. They say this the arians the father is unable to be described by the son, so the son cannot reveal the father. In this teaching they go on the word does not know the father perfectly or exactly, nor can he see him perfectly, for the son as he is does not even know his own essence. He came into being for our sake in order that God might create us through him as through a tool. He would not have come into existence if God had not wanted to make us. So that's a pretty bad like. I had to warn everybody because this teaching is truly horrific and you can see how that has to be responded to If that sort of thing is being taught even if it's being taught, because I imagine it wasn't always said that clearly, because heretics tend to disguise what they're saying because they know it's terrible what they're saying and say it because they know it's terrible what they're saying, so they'll tend to dress it up or hide it and so on.
Speaker 1:But when it's said out loud in all its clarity, like that, it is truly horrific to speak of God the Son in such a way. Now, did you notice, pj, just before we move on from that and we'll hear how Eusebius or how bishops have tried to initially respond to that, did you know? It was interesting when he said that the Arians said he is not similar in essence to the father and by nature is neither the true word of the father nor his true wisdom. So they made a distinction there between ousia and physis. Physis, what's going on there? What's that about? So those are like different words in Greek, but people often like to think there was not that much distinction about it this early on and that physis just kind of meant hypostasis, which it kind of doesn't. So like an ousia is what you are, so it's like being, so it's a participle of the word to be. It's just kind of what you are and you just make a noun of it and that's one of the defences of the word, because even though people are like, oh, it doesn't really occur in the Bible, and it does sometimes, but it's really just saying what God is, what the Father is, the Son is, that's all that. That's attempting to say yeah, yeah, so then that is like a category of things. So we're not describing something that exists as such. And so we were thinking before how there is, and this is what Constantine was wary of.
Speaker 1:When we start introducing philosophy, we introduce philosophical words and all kinds of concepts and we can take them into the Bible, and we thought with Aristotelianism, they have this idea. You have to have real things. And then you have categories that are like extracted from that. Or you could be platonic and you say the categories are the real thing and then instances come out of that. So a thesis is an instance of an example of something. Aristotle would say that's the real thing, and then patterns are things you extrapolate from it. Plato would say the pattern's the real thing and then the instance is the fake thing. But either way, that's kind of what's going on. They are different levels of reality and I think most people would agree more with Aristotle today. I think that you know there isn't. The categories are not real, they're just things that exist in our mind, just in observation, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:So ousia, yeah. So that is a long story short but is a complicated topic. But basically, yeah, ousia is a category of things. So it's like saying they don't belong to the same category. And Jesus as he's real, in his real subsistence, what he can grab hold of sort of thing that isn't like him either. So they do specify both.
Speaker 1:So that's important, because that sort of language becomes contentious later on. It becomes very contentious and we're going to that's why we're just pausing on it for the listeners. People might be saying, well, what does it matter? Well, at this point you might say, oh, it doesn't matter so much at Nicaea, but later councils, this kind of stuff becomes super important. And then people read back because this stuff becomes super contentious later. This, all this language, then you kind of. Then they go back and look very, very carefully at how these words were used back in earlier times, like at nicaea. So there's, yeah, we're trying. So what?
Speaker 1:What really is going on is the idea the arians are saying, uh, he doesn't have the, he's not got the like usia, so that what jesus is is not like what the father is and, by nature, fussus is neither the true word of the Father, so they're saying there's a category like divinity, and they're saying they're not in the same category of divinity. And the expression of divinity that Jesus is, the particular form that he has, isn't the word of the father nor his wisdom. So is that the difference between phosis? Yeah, yeah, so the father has his own instance of wisdom and word and everything which is identical with himself. So the phosis of the father is like so the usia would be the divinity. Yeah, so they'd say the divinity that the father has is expressed in the father and is the expression. That's the fussus. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. So the usia, the divine, the divinity, is expressed as the father. And they would go that expression of divinity that is the father is not the same as the expression of divinity that is expressed as the son, that they are not on the same level.
Speaker 1:That's what the Arians are saying, yeah, yeah, and that there is a sort of word and wisdom the father has in and of himself. Yeah, that they're included inside of him. Yeah, yeah, whereas Jesus is exterior to, because that language comes up, the idea that Jesus is exterior to the father, like not part of his same, being not born of him. He's entirely exterior, yeah, yeah. But we need to say he's exterior in one sense, don't we? Because we have to say it's not just that the word and wisdom of god is something that's entirely within the father. We say no, no, the son is the word and wisdom of the father anyway.
Speaker 1:And that's why we looked at sabalianism and paulism before to try and say, look there, what? This was a big problem that was already in people's heads, where it's like we make no distinction between the persons. So Arius got big because, especially when he didn't go all out, like we just read him do, he would sound like he's just arguing for there being distinctions between the persons, which, when there was so much modalism, was obviously the right thing to do. And so I mean we're going to see how saint eusebius saint eusebius of caesarea he at first seemed like friendly to eris and we've seen I think we looked at that, maybe we skipped over it, but we should mention it now if not. But he's going to go very strongly against him once it's made clear what his full teachings are.
Speaker 1:Because if all he's doing is arguing for distinctions in the persons, then in the context of everything we looked at last time, that makes total sense that. So in the context of people saying, look, um, it's really just the father and the son and the spirit are kinds of just different ways of talking about what the Father's doing. So in that context you're looking for people to go well, no, hang on, the Son is not the same as the Father, the Spirit is not the same as the Father. The Father, son and Spirit are really distinct. So if somebody suddenly says that when you're talking to someone who says, no, it's just the father and the son and spirit are kind of just different ways of talking about the father, you're like, whoa, that's totally wrong. And then someone goes, yeah, the father and the son are really different. At first you might go, oh, that's good that someone notes that the son and the father and the spirit are really distinct. So at first you might go, yeah, exactly. And then once that person carries on talking and it's arius, and he's like, yeah, in fact they're so different, they're not even in the same, they're not even like on the same level of being. And then you can imagine eusebius, like what? Hang on, like I thought you were helping, not harming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what had happened when Arius had gone to Nicomedea to live with his friend Eusebius of Nicomedea? He'd written a book called the Failure yeah, and that he does come up with.
Speaker 1:So people often with some of these heresies, think, oh, like the mainstream Christians have made up a load of stuff to make them sound worse. But we know that isn't true with arius, because he wrote this book. He gave the receipts. We know exactly what he thought and it's as bad as it sounds. Yeah, and there's so many quote in all these eyewitness accounts. People do give quite extensive, uh, records of what arius and his philosopher friends were saying and it kind of rings true. You're like, yeah, I can totally see what they're saying. They believe in a kind of Neoplatonic one that cannot possibly be incarnate and all these kind of In their minds. They're just like this is basic philosophy, can't you see it? And all the Christians are like, nah, honestly, you shouldn't believe in that Neoplatonic one thing. Yeah, well, initially we've heard the Aryans there.
Speaker 1:It was interesting because in this account that I was reading, this person feels we need to immediately be inoculated against it, having stated it. So the writer immediately warns us to have no fellowship with this darkness. What fellowship can there be between Christ and Belial? We're told that. And then he says this whoever has heard such things or who, as he hears them now, is not astonished, plugging his ears to stop hearing these filthy words. So yeah, we're told immediately, I shouldn't even have said these things. And then we're reminded of scriptures that very clearly state the divinity of the sun, that very clearly state the divinity of the Son. And he just gives us a quick kind of emergency pack just to quickly drive out the disease. So he refers us to John 1.1.
Speaker 1:In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, the Word was God. There's an easy one. And then he tells us John 1.18. Where Jesus? You know, no one has ever seen God, but he is the only begotten son who's made God known. And the fact that he makes God known, do you remember? Because the Arians are saying he can't explain God because he isn't on the same level. And then John says no, no, he does explain god in john 118. So just the fact that the son is, is, is stated in john 118 as one, the one who can describe god, means the arians are wrong. Just that proves they're wrong, because, because only God can describe God. That's the point. Like anything less than God cannot know God or cannot even see God, say the Arians, and that's important.
Speaker 1:And then John 1, verse 3, through the word all things were made, and that you're going to see, comes up again and again that the Orthodox bishops note that even the Aryans say that Jesus was created in order to create the heavens and the earth. So they would say he is the creator. But then they keep noting, ah, ah, if he is the creator, what does the bible say is the status of the one who says I am the creator? And very, very often the bible show the the creator of the heavens and the earth is the lord god, absolutely and completely. So that becomes very important that they, if you're going to say he created the heavens and the earth, you must then confess that he is true God. So we're given that, we're given Psalm 45, verse 1, which is a fascinating idea I've not thought of this one so much before and it's they say the father is speaking Psalm 45, verse 1, which I think is correct, and when you look in the context it totally makes sense.
Speaker 1:But there the father says Psalm 45, verse 1, my heart overflowed with a good word, and they're just simply pointing out the father has never been without his word. He's always had this joyful relationship with the word. And then Psalm 110, verse 3, were referred to also. John 14 9, whoever has seen me has seen the father, says Jesus, showing the identity between them, that he is a full and complete expression of the Father, not a lesser thing. John 14.10, I am in the Father, the Father is in me. Or John 10.30, I am the Father of one.
Speaker 1:Malachi 3.6 is considered important. Behold, I am, and I do not change Meaning in that context. The father doesn't become the father, but if he did not have a son, he could not have been a father and therefore he doesn't become a father. Because that's a big change of life kind of thing, where he's always been the father, he's always had a son, he's always had the word and the spirit with him. And then we're also reminded, of course, of Hebrews 13.8,. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. The idea is he is eternal. He's permanently around. Same yesterday, today and forever. The idea is he is eternal. He's permanently around past, present and future. And then also Colossians 1, 15, all things exist for him and through him. That's also in Hebrews 1, verse 2 and 3, like there.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting that in telling us about aureus, the eyewitness person feels we immediately need to be bolstered with some holy scriptures to drive out this demonic teaching from our hearts and minds. Good stuff, we're all happy with that. Um, there is a big list of all the priests from alexandria present offered. Um, they all gather. Where do they gather and why? Why do they gather there? What was, did you have something about it? The venue, and and and constantine calling it. Yeah, so they've responded initially. So comes in like, oh, we need an ecumenical council. So initially they're like all right, we'll sort it out. And they choose a place in Galatia, ankara, which is now the capital of Turkey. They choose that and they're like we'll sort it out.
Speaker 1:And then the Emperor, st Constantine, sends a letter. He's like actually you should meet in Nicaea because I want to be a part of this part of the council. Also, the Romans want to get involved. The Pope hasn't showed up, but he has sent some legates, or two of them. And then Hoseus of Cordoba wants. You know, he's from Spain. So he's saying some people are coming from the West. Also, we thought about Gothia. So he's thinking about ecumenical and so he's saying Nicaea is easier to get to if we're trying to get the global church. So we don't want this just to be eastern roman empire bishops. We want this to be easily reachable by the global church and so nicaea is good for that. The weather's better. He says so, he.
Speaker 1:So he gives quite a few reasons. He's saying he. So he's kind of called the council, he's concerned about the global church. And we've thought he's been a bit nervous about some of these bishops, that a lot of them just like causing division, whereas constantine's kept to focus on unity. So he wants, so he hasn't totally trusted all the bishops and their behaviors haven't been perfect so far.
Speaker 1:And he says he, he wants to shield, so he feels the current state of the bishops aren't that good because they're always dissenting, some of them just straight up teaching heresy. And he says he described it if he saw a bishop fornicating, he would cover the scene with his robe so that no one saw it and the church wasn't defaced and everything. He's saying that's what I'm trying to do for you. So I've got to be there so that you don't mess this up because you might. So he does then move it to Nicaea. But this was very nearly the Council of Ankara. Wow, that would have been so different. So he's like we need good transport links, nice environment, easy for me to be present. So let's do it at Nicaea. Wow, imagine that. If it was the Ankeran Creed or something, yeah, now he hosts it and more than 300 bishops arrive and then the ancillary staff people.
Speaker 1:As he has said, there was so many, it was beyond reckoning, so there could have been thousands of support staff, because each of the bishops seems to have, like, for example, alexandria, the priest of Alexandria, this is accompanying Alexander of Alexandria. There's a list here that must be close to 100 people who've all come along. Let me see there's 8, 16, 30, 46, plus another 16. So that's 62. I can see 62 separate people who are, with deacons and priests Including there. He's quite far down the list actually, but Athanasius oh, athanasius is in the list, yeah, as a deacon who's accompanying. Yeah, so there's 62 support staff coming from Alexandria.
Speaker 1:Now, alexandria is a big deal, so they won't all have been having that many, but it just gives us a glimpse on the fact that there's 318 bishops present and even if each of them only brought, say, 10 staff, on average, you're already over 3 000 people uh, rolling up. I mean some will have not come, maybe with any staff, maybe, and I think that's that's clear. But obviously some have come with tons. I always feel john oh yeah, we'll. We'll mention john actually in a bit.
Speaker 1:Uh, but one fun thing that's just worth mentioning uh, earlier on people, they're like early sources mentioned. When they list all the bishops they say we haven't got a full list so we can't number them exactly. So earlier on, athanasius and eusebius, all like, oh, there's about 300, certainly more than 250. In the end they're always like, no, there was exactly 318, because it's like an important number in the bible, 318. And so they're always like, yes, it was exactly that. So as time goes on they become certain, even though they haven't got a full list of all the bishops who were present, partly because of that that all the Eastern bishops met at Ankara and then other ones came in later. So then there wasn't a definitive list. But in the end they're always like, yes, there definitely was. They become sure of it.
Speaker 1:So I feel that's quite interesting and the importance of the number 318, isn't it, because there was that many people with Abraham when he goes to liberate Lot and defeats the Nephilim, sodom and Gomorrah and everything. It's 318. And they're like like exactly a prophecy that in order to destroy these workers of iniquity, uh, they. And then a constantine. There then is the abraham who has his household. Yeah, yeah, oh, that's lovely and I'm sure that's true. Now, um, what the?
Speaker 1:It says here that the emperor ordered that food should daily be supplied to all of them in abundance. Now, once you realize the quantity of people, say, if there's 3,000 people and every day he provides catering for 3,000 people, and we're going to see that although the main part takes part in a month, the whole thing lasts a month. Before they produce the Nicene Creed, there's still people hanging around for up to four years, and we'll see that at the end of it that he only formally closes it all down after four years. So if he's providing food, initially for a month anyway, to presumably several thousand people, it's a huge undertaking. And also what's interesting is the bishops gather, it says the next day, all the bishops assembled, because he first of all has a festival to honour the beginning of it, but also to honour his own victory against Licinius. And then he goes to Nicaea Next day. All the bishops assemble and it says here the emperor arrived after them and when he entered he stood in the centre and didn't sit down until the bishops signalled to him. Such great reverence and respect for these men filled him. So that's amazing.
Speaker 1:And then what, what he does this is at the very beginning of the entire proceedings is he gives a speech, a kind of an apologetic speech, um, demonstrating the christian faith, partly from nature. He looks at many things in nature the, the human body, stars, the functioning of of the world, um and the like, the architecture kind of of the universe and how that, uh is manifest, manifest proof of Christ, really. And he has some extraordinary things and he talks about this whoever created this kind of truly has true divinity. So the again that issue of who is the creator of this. Everyone agrees Jesus, god the Son, is the creator of all this. And he's like ah well, whoever has done all this has true divinity, not anything less than that. And it's quite a powerful speech.
Speaker 1:I mean, it hasn't got as much scripture in it as I would hope. You know, I would have liked him to do some more exegesis kind of thing, but everything he says is absolutely consistent with scripture and it comes from he talks about the saviour, he constantly refers to Jesus as the saviour and he has, by the power of our saviour's divine nature, made this building that is the universe. And he keeps speaking about him. Let me get the wording where he gives examples, where he talks about how he defeats the devil's temptations, and then he goes our mighty god, the savior of all, has extended light for all to share and he gives examples of uh, we came across some of the examples um, he, uh. He talks about him as the divine savior. Oh, I've got, I wanted to find you this example.
Speaker 1:Uh, constantine is gives this big speech Doesn't have as much scripture as I would have liked, but nevertheless it's clear that he sees Jesus as the true divine, one saviour who's created the universe. And then he ends with this strong urging the bishops to find unity, and that it's causing him great distress to see disunity in church. And then it says here like so this is why the emperor saw when the church was in disorder. So he convened this ecumenical council, sending letters urging bishops from all parts to meet at Nicaea in Bithynia. It was in the sixth month of the 16th year of his reign, when he zealously undertook these efforts for ecclesiastical peace. And here it says that bishops came from many provinces and cities.
Speaker 1:And then Eusebius of Caesarea is quoted as saying the foremost ministers of God gathered from all the churches throughout Europe, africa and Asia. And there's this lovely little insight, because they were all living in shared accommodation, basically, and hostels and things. And it says here that one of these houses, as if enlarged by God, held Syrians, silesians, phoenicians, arabs, palestinians, egyptians, thebans, libyans and Mesopotamians. A Persian bishop was present at the council and there was also a Scythian, someone from Pontus, asia, phrygia, pamphylia, thracians, macedonians, achaeans and Epirotes. Who were they? They're?
Speaker 1:They're like a roughly what's now Albania, although if I say that that will start a comment war, but like Albania, although if I say that that will start a comment war, but like that area includes parts of Albania and Greece, but that side of the Balkans, kind of Albanians, and they're described as coming from far away. And then also there's this guy who, the highly celebrated Hoseus of Cordova in Spain, now he represents the Bishop of Rome, this Hoseus of Spain, and we're going to see he does comment and they speak well of this guy, but I don't know if he's as good, you know, I think he's come along to it, but anyway it's good, he's there. He's there and he's maybe not as good as some of the others that come, but nevertheless, but he is a Latin speaker and all of this is happening in Greek, so it might be, you know, yeah, so there is that. Yeah, so he could have been out of his depth, but yeah, and he's a Latin speaker, but he's trying, I think, to speak in Greek, as the quotations show. So there it is. That's how it all begins and they get on with it and daily food has been provided. Yeah, we've talked about that.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, constantine, so Constantine does give a speech. And actually, yeah, I've turned over my page and here is the bit that we had in mind where he does have lots of scripture bits, because I couldn't find it before and I was like, oh, I wanted more script, because I remember him referring to the scriptures and he talks about our divine savior being born of a virgin and how he came with the teachings of god and how he fed the crowd with very little bread and only two fish, and it says this by his divine providence. He raised lazarus with a short staff after his death and brought him back into the brilliant light. There is an interesting little note that he thinks Jesus was carrying a short staff as he raised Lazarus from the dead. Then here's another quotation from this is remember this is the Emperor Constantine giving the opening speech of the whole of the divine of the council of nicaea.
Speaker 1:He says here how should I speak of his pure divine nature, through which he saw that a woman was secretly suffering from an illness and after he let her merely touched him, he restored her to health free of sickness. Notice again his pure divine nature enabled Jesus to do that. And this is Constantine speaking at the beginning of the whole council and he talks again about by his sure divine step he bound the stormy sea, walking and treading upon it, and with his divine footsteps he made the liquid of the deep sea solid and went straight through the middle of the sea as if it were land, and so on. Um, yeah, lots of references here to his divine nature and divine actions. So, constantine, he's kind of being pretty clear up front that obviously jesus, it has, it has pure and absolute divinity.
Speaker 1:And so it helps us understand in his letter when you're saying, oh look, you all believe the same thing. And as he's saying that, now he's like look, this is what we all believe, that god walked on water and god was born of mary, and all of this as he's saying. So he's saying he was basically under the impression that deep down, the arians believed all this stuff and they've just accidentally gotten muddled on some logical point and we're here to sort it out and now they'll just admit we all actually share the same faith. Uh, so because people often think like, oh yeah, actually he wasn't a christian, he was a philosopher himself and he just said god and he could have meant anyone. And that speech really shows in that he's like god, the god he worships and the god he thinks the arians worship is the one who walked in the water and was born and all of this. So I think that and he keeps calling jesus god in this uh speech and you could just imagine eusebius of nicomedea and the others just like cringing or something, whatever he says it, because he just says it so often it's like God did it and they've just set out the whole thing. It's like, well, god can't walk around and God can't do it and he just goes through. It's like well, god did this, that and the other, and we all know that. Right, yeah, so what are we arguing about? Because everyone knows that.
Speaker 1:Well, he does end his speech kind of by saying that. It's as if he just can't understand what people are arguing about. Because he says it would be awful, worse than awful, now that our enemies have been defeated and no one dares to oppose us any longer. If we're arguing with each other, especially arguing about theological questions, even though we have the written teaching of the holy spirit, the gospels, the apostolic epistles and the prophetic writings of the ancient prophets clearly teach us what we should believe concerning god. Therefore, let us cast out conflict, which leads to war, and find the solution to these questions in the scriptures inspired by god. That's how his speech ends and calls it.
Speaker 1:And then because he said the scriptures were inspired by the holy spirit, and then said inspired by god. And then the holy spirit is also denied by the arians. But he again doesn't know it. So he just says he's like obviously, everyone we know like God was born, walked around, did miracles, and God, the Spirit, has given us the scriptures, aren't we okay? Yeah, we're all on the same page, surely? And then, then immediately, it says well, this person writing says the wise emperor offered these and similar words to his fathers.
Speaker 1:The priests, like a child who loves his father, trying to understand the apostolic beliefs Of the bishop gathered there, who numbered 318, 300, were persuaded by what he said. But there was this other batch, this sinister crowd, the 17 of them, with Arius making 18. And there's Eusebius of Nicomedea, theognis of somewhere, maris of Chalcedon, theodore of Heraclea, menaphantis of Ephesus, petrophilus of uh, scythopolis, narcissus, um uh, secunda. There's that Secunda guy, theonis, uh, secunda's, actually from Egypt, and with them, uh, eight others who mix themselves in with the company of the 300. So those are the list.
Speaker 1:Now, what do you make of that idea? When he's praising him, of course, but he does say he was like a child, doesn't Eusebius? Kind of he? Because it's amazing speech, I think.
Speaker 1:And I think, eusebius, when he heard it he didn't think oh, here's Constantine trying to understand the faith. He saw it as more as, oh, constantine. He's like the master theologian, doesn't he? Yeah, he does say he's the first of all of them To actually understand what's going on and to confess the proper faith. He says this in his letter to his church and so he mentions and that that the language of being of the same nature or being the divine, you know, having the divine nature. He mentions it in that opening speech and that ends up becoming what's fought over and he obviously just introduces it just almost without thinking. He says, well, you know the divine nature and all of this, and then that becomes a sticking point. So he just kind of immediately comes up with a solution word that ends up defeating the Aryans, like without thinking.
Speaker 1:So Eusebius is definitely of the view that I think he tends to agree with Constantine that the bishops were being unhelpful and disunited and scheming and all of this, and Constantine had a much clearer view. But he's humble, so he does all this. He tries to get them to save face all the time, but whether or not what's actually going on is that they're all correct and they're teaching clear review. But he's humble, so he does all this. He tries to get them to save face all the time, but whether or not what's actually going on is that they're all correct and they're teaching him. I don't think you say this is so persuaded, and I don't think I am either. Yeah, no, we love, constant sign, equal to the apostles. Um, now then? Um, let's be, we're coming. Well, we're gonna soon be at our hour mark and we'll have to close this nice scene special then. But before then I want to just see a little bit more about how Constantine handled things at the council.
Speaker 1:It does note here that Alexander of Constantinople was there. Alexander of Constantinople was a priest who was there. Alexander of Constantinople was there, and he's because the actual, like Archbishop of Constantinople Bishop, who obviously you would imagine, would have been in very, very important as one of the great leaders, but he was too elderly and infirm. So Alexander of Constantinople was there to represent Constantinople and then he becomes the Archbishop of Constantinople later. But also, it was noted specifically that Athanasius was the Archdeacon of the Church of Alexandria.
Speaker 1:So it was noted that these two, alexander of Constantinople and Athanasius of Alexandria, staunchly resisted these 18, who, these sinister 18, who weren't happy with Constantine's speech. So it's interesting, isn't it, that it was noted straight away that 300, the 300 real Christian bishops were just like wow, yeah, thank you. You know, constantine's done it, nailed it, that's it sorted, surely. But there's these 18 who were like, didn't like Constantine's opening speech. So it was obvious that what they heard Constantine say was a refutation of them. Even though Constantine doesn't get into all the long grass of philosophical language and technicalities, he's asserting that God was walking on the water when Jesus walked on the water and all of that. So they don't like it.
Speaker 1:But one of the things that happens is that I wanted to just share this that because of the bishops the 300 that are good, nevertheless they're not perfect and they have arguments with each other and you know there's always personal aggro other and you know there's always personal aggro. Uh, I've never been to any sort of major church gathering of church clergy without. You know, we're all sinners and there's a lot of pride and jealousy and backbite. That sort of thing happens. And then the good good thing is Jesus helps us to deal with these things and then we forgive each other and reconcile and so on. Now obviously there's all these bishops gathering when all the 3,000 extras and everything, and there's all sorts of grief and aggro and disagreements and arguments and they want Constine to fix that. And I'm reminded of that thing in the gospels when people come to jesus and say, hey, we're trying to divide up an inheritance, we're arguing with each other and hating on each other because we all want what we're deserved. Jesus, can you make sure this is done in a fair way? Will you sort it out and bring peace by doing you know, coming to an equitable solution about it? And I think a lot of the bishops were like that with Constantine. They were like we've all got arguments about stuff politics really and Constantine's going to call it politics. They've got political disagreements about power and decisions and authority or policies and things, and this is what happens. I'm going to read it for you.
Speaker 1:This writer Eyewitness says I can't leave out the amazing deed which the all-victorious emperor performed during the synod. When all the bishops gathered, as is the custom, some of the bishops introduced investigations and controversies over quarrels they had with each other. When they filed indictments and brought their charges before the pious emperor, he accepted them all, sealed them with his signet ring and ordered that they be kept safe. So he's gathered them up with a wax seal, put his seal on it, which means no one can open that other than him. So he's like no, let's keep those safe, thank you for bringing them. And then it says on observing the mutual strife between these bishops, he said they should all meet on a specific day to sort it all out.
Speaker 1:When the appointed day came, the emperor took a seat in the middle and when everyone had fallen silent, as was fitting for the occasion, he had everyone's complaints brought in. Then he took them and put them all on his lap Because he desired not to examine them. He said God appointed you all as priests and rulers and he's determined that you will judge and evaluate the crowds and be gods, for you stand above people, according to the scripture. And then he he quotes Constantine, then quotes Psalm 82, verse 6. You are gods, you're all sons of the Most High. And then Psalm 82, verse 1, god stands in the assembly of gods. And then Constantine concludes therefore, you need not worry about political affairs. Instead, direct all your attention to theology. So that's fascinating, isn't it? And then I'll tell you what he does next in a second.
Speaker 1:But just note that that he's really saying you are supposed to ultimately be able to judge angels and you've been put in this position, that you're kind of supposed to have the wisdom and maturity to sort out problems that other people have got. You're supposed to be like like gods, with wisdom and maturity and being able to handle things. And the reason you're not able to do that is because you've got involved in politics. You've got embroiled in earthly mentality. You're supposed to be sort of taking your stand in heavenly places with the lord jesus and and get above all that stuff and not be after money and power and you shouldn't be bothered about jealousy of all these things. If you really have this heavenly perspective, you know, a christ-centered cosmic civilization mindset, then this kind of political argument stuff you wouldn't have any problem with that. You'd be able to judge wisely and be humble and all of that and and love one another. So he says the reason you're not doing that is because you're you're, you're worrying about political affairs. And instead he says direct all your attention to theology. As if if you would do that the study of god, the worship of god, devotion to god if you would do that the study of God, the worship of God, devotion to God If you did that, you actually would then have the wisdom to handle all these things. And then it says he had them start a fire and burn all the complaints, for he was trying to ensure that no one outside would learn of the bad efforts of these bishops, such was the emperor's reverence for the priests of God. All who think clearly should admire this reverence. I think that's a good play. Have you got anything to add to that? Did you find something on that? Yeah, well, I was thinking.
Speaker 1:Just another example of saint eusebius's mindset, the kind of bishops he wants in his empire that he's hopefully inspired them all to be and everything um. But there's one who's already there and there's a great story saint spiridon. Uh, he's a cypriot and and he was just a shepherd, a humble shepherd, and he'd been made bishop and he's married, he's got loads of kids and he's kind of just a normal guy, but an incredibly holy normal guy. So he's been made the bishop and all of this, and he does all kinds of miracles all the time and Constantine's personally invited him. He wants to make sure Spyridon's here and I think we can see, probably why, that this is the example he wishes he'd seen more often in bishops.
Speaker 1:So when he comes because he's just a shepherd and he's got shepherd's robe and they might smell a bit one of the guards stops him going in. And when he's like no, no, constantine sent me in, he thinks oh, no, he's like no, no, constantine sent me. And he thinks, oh no, he's like, uh, you know, he's like some homeless guy, he's trying to get in, yeah, so he like strikes him, and then he strikes spiradon, yeah, yeah and he. But then he turns the other cheek and then constantine comes out to get him and then he gives him a seat next to him and but then, before he goes in, spiradon wants to make up with the guard and he forgives him as he does, so that they're all. And so that is exactly.
Speaker 1:You can see why Constantine's like that's the guy he wants as the kind of symbol.
Speaker 1:This is what a bishop should be, and literally a shepherd, yeah, that's a literal shepherd who is not bothered about fancy clothes or anything and literally has just come in his shepherd's gear, can't get in, gets struck, forgives the guard.
Speaker 1:And Constantine's like that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that is true. And you know, like if all church leaders, particularly bishops and things, had so little concern for politics or fancy clothes or whatever concern for politics or fancy clothes or whatever, and and the great ones are always like that, aren't they? The great one, the great bishops and things always have that humility and wisdom and maturity. I love spirited. And now I want to know more about him, um, and we may hear more about him next time because there's an incident that we think is him doing some good. So thanks for this has been a bumper double length episode, as we really wanted to have opportunity to explore the setting of the council and how it was organized and things. But we're going to carry on doing that and listen into the conversations and debates that happened at the Council of Nicaea.