The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Rod Dreher wrote “to order the world rightly as Christians requires regarding all things as pointing to Christ”
Christ is the One in Whom in all things consist and humanity is not the measure of all things. If a defining characteristic of the modern world is disorder then the most fundamental act of resistance is to discover and life according to the deep, divine order of the heavens and the earth.
In this series we want to look at the big model of the universe that the Bible and Christian history provides.
It is a mind and heart expanding vision of reality.
It is not confined to the limits of our bodily senses - but tries to embrace levels fo reality that are not normally accessible or tangible to our exiled life on earth.
We live on this side of the cosmic curtain - and therefore the highest and greatest dimensions of reality are hidden to us… yet these dimensions exist and are the most fundamental framework for the whole of the heavens and the earth.
Throughout this series we want to pick away at all the threads of reality to see how they all join together - how they all find common meaning and reason in the great divine logic - the One who is the Logos, the LORD Jesus Christ - the greatest that both heaven and earth has to offer.
Colossians 1:15-23
The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Episode 83 - Rediscovering Festivals: Reviving the Sacredness of Christian Rituals and Festivals
Can Christian festivals today still hold significant spiritual value, or are they just relics of the past? Join us for a compelling exploration of these traditions, as we navigate the tensions between historical practices and modern faith needs. We kick things off by shining a light on Candlemas and Candlemas Tide, challenging the notion that physical rituals lack relevance in today's spiritual landscape. We'll unpack the rich implications of the incarnation and how it beautifully weaves the physical and spiritual realms together, providing a profound context for our conversation.
Next, we tackle the provocative teachings of Galatians 4:8-10, where Paul warns against the dangers of reducing faith to ritual observance. Does this mean time-honored festivals are a spiritual trap? By dissecting this passage with insights from St. Victorine's commentary, we distinguish between valuing traditions and relying on them for spiritual justification. The conversation deepens as we explore the role of Christian festivals in pointing believers toward Jesus, and how these celebrations can be structured to provide meaning rather than being dismissed as outdated rituals.
Finally, we reflect on the vital intersection of spirituality and seasonal celebrations, contemplating how genuine faith can invigorate traditional practices. Whether it's reconciling Christian and pagan traditions or reinvigorating festivals with heartfelt understanding, we discuss how these celebrations can foster deeper connections to God and the community. From combating the commercialization of Christmas to balancing the theological journey of the church year, we examine how embracing the true essence of these festivals can invite and retain believers, keeping the faith rich with purpose and significance.
Candlemas Book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Candlemas-Through-Church-History-Project/dp/B0DQDPX2T9/
The theme music is "Wager with Angels" by Nathan Moore
Well, welcome to the next episode of the Christ-Centered Cosmic Civilization. And we are still in our deep dive into Candlemas and Candlemas Tide and this. In a way, I'd like to think a little bit about this whole idea of the church year and festivals and feasts that we're in. I'm hoping we can also get to look at Simeon and Anna in this episode. But let's begin, because one of the things that's been in the background throughout these episodes, when we're looking at the church year and particularly these kinds of feasts and festivals that Christians, our Christian ancestors, set up and sometimes they had practices like we thought about that Christian lady who carried a candle from Bethlehem to Jerusalem and that went viral and people loved it and then ended up having this as a kind of activity that would be a great way of reminding them of Jesus. And then the whole idea of bees and wax and all sorts of things began to come into this to help people think more deeply about Jesus and so on. But there is a view that I come across quite often that kind of takes the view that God hates feasts and festivals and that all this idea Well, let's take this into stages. The argument has different forms. So one form is that feasts and festivals and church year is something that belonged only to the Old Testament. And often with that comes the idea that anything in the Old Testament is automatically not really Christian, comes the idea that anything in the Old Testament is automatically not really Christian. And literally I know this will be a shock because I know those that listen to Christ-centered cosmic civilization are people who take the whole Bible seriously. But I've had people just say to me when I've referenced something in the Old Testament like circumcision. I was recently in a discussion with a person and I was talking about the spiritual reality of circumcision, and circumcision was all about circumcision of the heart, it was about new birth, regeneration, justification by faith. It was always that from Genesis onwards. And they said but it's just an Old Testament thing, it's not spiritual, it's not, it's not like we are christian church people, we are into spiritual things, whereas that was the old testament and that wasn't spiritual and that wasn't. And I was, you can imagine I was sort of physically staggered backwards as if I'd been shot. So so was the outrage of that thing.
Speaker 1:But there is a view that kind of having physical rituals or festivals or feasts, things that are physical or tied to history, history or physical things are intrinsically an Old Testament thing, or physical things are intrinsically an Old Testament thing and therefore, to some people, therefore, they are less Christian, less spiritual, and the idea in this is that somehow, to be really Christian, you should be as little, little, uh, you should almost minimize physicality and history and um, creatureliness or earth, like everything to do with the way we were made, can minimize that and maximize things that are invisible and abstract, and those are more christian. So there's that's one idea that's in the mix, and we'll we'll ask pj to come in on this in a minute, because it seems an odd thing for people to be making that kind of a point in relation to the incarnation, um. So there's that point. Then there's another point that people make where they'll say the problem is that you shouldn't. So there were things that the Lord, god, commanded in the Old Testament festivals, feasts, rituals, physical representations of spiritual reality, spirituals, physical representations of spiritual reality but that was only for that period of time. So it was right to do those things then and they were spiritual, they had spiritual meaning at that time and that people should have understood the spiritual reality of those things at that time, but that now the Lord, god, has not given a series of instructions for feasts and rituals and things and therefore we shouldn't do them, because we should only do the things that are explicitly or implicitly commanded for us to do in scripture.
Speaker 1:And so people who take that argument, they actually might do all kinds of things, like they might wear suits to go to church the Bible neither explicitly nor implicitly tells them to do that, but they think that's an appropriate thing to do. Or they might meet in a brick and mortar building Again neither explicitly nor implicitly commanded, but they feel. Or they might have whitewashed walls Again neither explicitly nor implicitly, but again they feel. No, no, that's all. These are things that are appropriate things to do. And so it kind of leads there's a danger that it leads to a kind of cultural blindness where they'll say there are all kinds of things we are going which we think are the right setting to do Christian worship and Christian activities in physical buildings, and we think the physical building should look like this and we think people should dress like this and we think music should be of this character. And although musical instruments are commanded in the scriptures, sometimes people say we don't, we don't think there were any musical instruments commanded in the New Testament, so we're not going to have any musical instruments, but we will have these forms of chanting or psalms or whatever there's.
Speaker 1:All these kind of debates happen and the idea then is only do the things that are explicitly or implicitly commanded. And therefore, although there's loads of things we do in fact do, and we don't think it's right to recommend church festivals Christmas, easter, epiphany Tide, candlemas Tide any of these things, because the Lord, if he wanted us to do them, he would have explicitly commanded them to be done. So there's that argument. And then there's an even stronger form of that that says that doing these festivals at all not only is something that the Lord has not commanded, but that the Lord actually hates them. He hates it when Christians try to express their faith in physical, practical, temporal terms. It's something that is actually alien to the Christian faith and actually violates the nature of God, and he kind of is so opposed to physical and temporal manifestations of the faith that it upsets him down to his core of the faith, that it upsets him down to his core.
Speaker 1:And so here's an example where people might quote from Isaiah, chapter one PJ's with us and we're going to bring him in in a second. But let me read some. I'll read two scriptures. I'll read the Isaiah one and then I'm going to read should we have the Galatians 1, pj, yeah, and then we'll see what PJ has to say about these things. Because people will read these scriptures and say this is the Lord's attitude to the church year or church festivals, and that actually we should just. Well, I suppose really I don't know if a person is really strong on this would they even keep the weekly sabbath? They might even regard that as too physical, too temporal.
Speaker 1:But let's, here's what the lord says in isaiah, chapter 1 um, when you come to, this is Isaiah chapter one, from verse 12. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you? Who has asked this of you? This trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings. Your incense is detestable to me. New moons, sabbaths and convocations or gatherings I cannot bear your worthless assemblies, your new moon feasts and your appointed festivals. Noted that your appointed festivals, the Lord says I hate these with all my being. Or it's authorised version has my soul hateth. The Lord's soul hates these things. They have become a burden to me. I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you. Even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. So there that's pretty intense. Isaiah 1, verse 12 to 15, where the Lord seems to be really disgusted and hates in his very soul new moons, sabbaths, gatherings, worthless assemblies, appointed festivals, new moon feasts, even prayer. Even prayer he doesn't like there. So that's a strong thing, like the Lord clearly is unhappy about something to do with a church year, issue things there, what is it?
Speaker 1:And there's another reading, and this is the one that people often deploy, and it's in Galatians, where Paul is upset that people are treating the law as necessary for salvation, and he's upset by the Galatians that they think that obedience to the law is a necessary part of salvation. I think, anyway, I would. Well, here's what Paul says. So we'll go from verse eight of Galatians, chapter four. He says formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who, by nature, are not gods. So he's like talking, saying you used to slavishly follow, say, demons and things that were not gods. You know god, or rather are known by god, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces, the stoichia, the elemental forces, these demonic powers. Do you wish to be enslaved by them? All over again? And then it is evidence that they are controlled by demons. So this is very, very strong. Is the evidence that they're controlled by demons is galatians 4, verse 10.
Speaker 1:You are observing special days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. That is really the strongest, isn't it? That's maybe even stronger than Isaiah 1. So the Lord hates these things in Isaiah 1. Here, it's evidence of demonic slavery. To observe special days and months and seasons and years. Now that seems pretty strong, doesn't it? And the basis of that? We shouldn't do anything. We shouldn't even do Sabbath day, I mean, like even the 10 commandments, like we have to abandon that. Presumably, but certainly it looks as if the Lord hates in his very soul special days and months and seasons. He is because, but demons love them. Demons love church festivals, whereas God hates them. Is this what's going on, pj?
Speaker 2:take us, take us to sanity on all of this well, one quite crucial thing is that many translations add the word special to the days, which is not original. It's the word special to the days which is not original. It's just that you're observing days, months, seasons and years. And one thing early church people celebrating days, months, seasons and years point out is it's impossible not to observe days, months, seasons and years. You know, if you just notice like, oh, the sun's gone down, oh, today's a tuesday or something, you're observing the days, months, seasons, years and genesis one.
Speaker 1:He literally created the sun, moon and stars in order to establish days, months and seasons and years.
Speaker 2:He says so yeah so there is that where it's just something like, well, if you get rid, because it doesn't say so, they add the word special to try and make people fall into an exegesis. Some translators do this and that's quite bad, um, because it's like just really, just say what paul says and don't add to it, don't try and guide. But then the reason they do that is they think well, paul can't be saying you're not a, you shouldn't be able to observe the very sun in the sky or anything. And it's like, yeah, yeah, he can't be saying that. That would be silly, that would be a silly thing to say. So, rather than try and give him something a bit more meaningful by adding stuff in, just kind of think about that. It's like well then, in what sense is observing wrong?
Speaker 2:And St Victorine, in his commentary on Galatians he says what it is is that you no longer have your faith from Christ, nor hope for grace for yourselves from his passion and resurrection. If you believe that justification comes from the law, so it's that you're trusting in these things to justify you rather than Jesus justifying you. So it's not merely observing, in a sense, and he only says that he's worried because they're observing. And I think that's partly because of everything else they're doing, that he talks about it, that some people who weren't circumcised circumcise themselves and then are saying that's how we know we're saved. And then he's saying, well, that looks like you're trusting in the circumcision to save you, rather than what circumcision is about, which is jesus. So that, historically, is how that passage is understood.
Speaker 1:So it's quite important to for people to actually study the book of galatians, because in the book of galatians he isn't saying look you, galatians, I'm really upset because you're getting very, very excited about celebrating the birth of jesus and you're so excited that the incarnation has happened and that is our only hope for salvation, and you're you've also. I hear that you've even set up a festival to get excited about the death of Jesus as our only hope for salvation. How horrific. Why are you trusting in the birth of Jesus? Why are you trusting in the death of Jesus? You should not get excited about the birth and death of Jesus. Now, when you put it like that, of course that's ridiculous. He would love it if that's what they'd be doing, but they weren't doing that. What they were doing was saying, well, there is jesus, but actually let's get excited about, say, the new moon cycle or the harvest cycle, because we have to trust in the law about harvests in order to be saved.
Speaker 2:And he's like, well, I'm gone yeah, and, quite crucially, he points out that they're doing something they used to do, so they used to be oh, brilliant, brilliant go on, carry on. So they would look at like the zodiac and then say I'm going to be saved because jupiter's ascending right now and that sort of thing, and it's like. So he's saying you used to do something. Well, they didn't used to follow the law of.
Speaker 1:Moses.
Speaker 2:So if they're doing something they used to do, it may not even be anything to do with festivals at all. The days, months and seasons and years they might be observing might be the motion of the zodiacs and the movement of the planets and that sort of thing, because he says you were under the influence of these Pagan deities, demons and things.
Speaker 2:yeah, that's right and uh bardai san, who we often like quoting him. He does see that he he believes that before you're saved you don't have total control over your own emotions and passions and things and that the zodiac do actually influence. So he believes people say oh, I just did this because I'm a taurus and we might laugh about that these days. He says for pagans it's actually real, like the, the beggarly elements of the universe do actually control people and he felt that was justifiable from this passage oh no, and and I do think the bible as a whole does believe that that.
Speaker 1:That is what like if you are, if, when we are, live according to the flesh and we're just in that fallen humanity, the world is in fact controlled by the devil.
Speaker 1:The devil is the god of this passing world and all the you know, the, the demons and things have enormous power and we are subject to like fate. That the powers and forces of a fallen world are what control us, that is factually true. And so, as you say, outside of Christ, if you're still under the slavery of the devil and the Bible teaches that, until we become a Christian, we are slaves of Satan, and so that, yeah, as you say, the sun, moon and stars are the powers that control us, and that is factually true, factually true. And it's not as if that's just a silly superstition. No, in the Bible that is real. And that when you become a Christian, you're liberated from these powers and now you're not subject to fatalism or the power of stars or things. Now you're not subject to fatalism or the power of stars or things, now you're able to actually make choices by the power of Christ to do good things. So, yeah, that's amazingly powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that is the historic view of these verses, and so that's quite important to know. That it's about, yeah, it is about what we're like when we're not Christians, and it's also about what we trust in in order to save us. But you've got to do something. You don't just wait around, just sitting in a room waiting to die and then be saved, and then you know that's not really what christians do. We have to do something meaningful, and if you avoid, um, doing festivals and things like that, then that becomes like an unfestival. You're like there has to be.
Speaker 2:The meaning of the year is that it's meaningless and you will repeat this by doing nothing. Uh, that is what has caused atheism. I believe that you do see, as once christian countries began to cut out festivals that were pointing us to jesus, then people begin to think actually nothing has any meaning because we're enforcing this, like when you have this day, you're not supposed to think it's all about jesus. You meant to think it means nothing. That means the day is about nothing, and then you believe in nothing yeah and so that's.
Speaker 2:That's the thing. Is that paul's warning about? If you have a good? Well, you know, we thought about these two interpretations, but the one where he might be talking about celebrations and in other parts of galatians he is talking about the law of moses, and if you're doing it for the wrong reasons, you ruin something that's meant to point you to jesus. It's like one of their terrible things about. Like things like, say, kabbalah, whether it tells you to read the bible in this way, where you get mystical power and stuff, then you don't actually read the bible in order to hear what the spirit's saying, so that ruins something that the lord has given us, which is good. And so it's the same with feasts that we do have the. You know the whole.
Speaker 2:Jesus has explained what the whole year is about, and it's all about jesus. Um, and so, like when we think about harvest time, that makes us think about the end of the world, because everything's being gathered into barns. And then when we think about the first fruits, the first time the year is enabling food to be gathered in, that's supposed to make us think about the resurrection and Jesus' conception as well. They happen at the same time and for a good reason, that Jesus is our first fruits in both of those ways, as being the first perfect human we can offer up. And there's that wave offering where you just show the Father and that's what Jesus is. But then also the resurrection. Is that that he's the first fruits of the resurrection? So you know, when we think about the Bible and specifically Moses does this way, just go through the whole year and says when you're doing your first harvest, do this so that you know what it means. And we're going to notice when, if you're properly rooted in what Jesus wants you to be rooted in, you're going to notice when the harvest comes in and it's got to mean something. And if you keep resisting and say it means nothing, that will have a negative effect. So instead you should think what does Moses and Jesus say harvest is about and things like that, that gets our whole year properly. And so then when we have candlemas and we thought about what's so important about it that it's this dark time but you're bringing in things like wax and you've got extra tallow that you could make candles with, does that mean anything? Well, perhaps it's no coincidence that Jesus was presented in the temple at that time and then all the things, because we're told.
Speaker 2:And one quite important thing is that we are told when Jesus is conceived and born, because it says John is conceived in the order of Abijah, which is a time in the year. There's calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls and so on. That explains exactly when each order happens. So the order of Abijah is the autumnal equinox and then Jesus is conceived six months after that, so that's the spring equinox, lady Day in March. Then he's born nine months after that and that's the winter solstice, or you know thereabouts because obviously it doesn't necessarily happen mechanically.
Speaker 2:Then we think in the old testament you've got and we see jesus celebrate hanukkah, the dedication of the temple, which is basically just a few days. It is in that week. So then christians were like that's obviously when he's born, then when the temple is dedicated, it has to be the day. So they're. Actually the old testament tells us what the whole year means and it means jesus. So if you're just going along christmas because you're like you're supposed to do christmas and it makes you more holy to be do christmas, then that's wrong and then jesus would rather you do nothing than do that. But if you actually understand what does christmas mean? And you notice what's going on in the world around you, that it's the, that jesus is born on the shortest day of the year, when there's the most dark. That has to mean something and it's better to mark.
Speaker 1:It's the turning point of the of the year, isn't it in the northern hemisphere, which is where he's born? Um, yeah, that there's this after he's born, like more and more light comes after that point, this is, and some people go. But the very fact that there's this after he's born, like more and more light comes after that point, this is, and some people go. But the very fact that it's connected to nature means it's pagan. Because literally I've met Christians who think anything to do with nature is pagan, because everything Christian is like anti-nature or anti-physical or connected to something only mental, and you think, well, hang on, you can't give nature and the physical world away. The Lord, god, created this and it's very good, and he became flesh and dwelt among us and the whole point is it's ours, not theirs. And if anyone's stolen, like the concept of equinox and then the turning of the year, so that the days now become longer and everything, if pagans have done something with it, they have stolen that from us, like even thousands of years. Right, go back to the beginning of the world. All of it's christian, all of it's ours. And it's such a weird thing where Christians in the modern period go.
Speaker 1:Pagans have noticed how spring is a bit spiritual. Therefore, spring belongs to them and we're like what. It doesn't belong to them. The god of the spring, the god who gives life to all things, is the Father, son and Holy Spirit. It's nothing to do with them. How dare they? How dare they have equinox festivals? We should go and disrupt them and protest at the festivals and say what are you doing? This is nothing to do with you. But in fact there's christians who go oh well, we'll stop doing it because pagans think that they've got something to say about this. And we're like what? Because pagans think that they've got something to say about this and we're like what.
Speaker 1:So I know that to me, it had a huge impact upon me years and years ago when I really was going through Moses Moses is my favorite bit of the Bible, as most people know, but really understanding the church year in the law and that the entire year had a structure, a theological structure to it, and it was beginning with the Passover stuff time of meditating on repentance and the desperate need for salvation and how you would go through a process of theological meditation all about Jesus and how he's the Passover lamb, and then you'd all work through to tabernacles and longing for the new creation, and then the Hanukkah stuff and all of that. Then you start to go whoa. So the whole year is supposed to be a kind of journey of theological meditation, taking you through all these aspects of the person and work of Jesus Christ. The Lord. God gave that to the ancient church and that we do that in lots of different ways and there's lots of variations over the whole world. All the tribes, all the Christian tribes around the world have all kinds of variations and wonderful examples of giving life to this, the year and and filling it and taking time to, to, to make sure we meditate and enjoy all the aspects and celebrate it.
Speaker 1:But going back to that isaiah, one see the lord hates what they're doing. Why? Because of how they're doing it, isn't't it? It's not. He likes sacrifices and burnt offerings and the fat. And when he says I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats, that's in Isaiah 1.11. It's why, doesn't he?
Speaker 1:Well, if you read the whole chapter, it's because as the chapter begins, he's like shocked where the Lord goes. Hear me, you heavens listener. The Lord has spoken. I reared children, brought them up, but they've rebelled against me. The ox knows its master, the donkey, its owner's manger, interesting for Christmas. But Israel does not know. My people do not understand. Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption. They have forsaken the Lord. So the problem is. And then he goes on and says they're rotten to the core, the whole thing. So he's saying like what he loves those sacrifices and offerings, when they're done out of love for him and closeness to him and understanding and we got loads of examples in the throughout the Old Testament that when these things are done with spiritual reality and love and joy and understanding, then there's wonderful times of revival and blessing.
Speaker 1:But if people are just doing them mechanically but their lives are rotten and they don't trust in Jesus, then he says I hate it, like he doesn't need the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. As if he's like the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. As if he's like, oh, I'm good, I, unless you give me blood and meat and stuff, I'm gonna be hungry, he doesn't have to eat it or anything like that. So he's like I hate it, I don't need any of this stuff, don't? Because they're thinking, oh, we'll give god this stuff, then that'll make him happy and he's like no, you would make me happy if you gave yourselves to me. But you can't just give. I don't need any of this stuff. I need you, you as what I'm.
Speaker 1:After, all of these festivals were about winning you, getting your hearts and minds, the sacrifice of you, your lives being a living offering. And if you think, if you're bringing all this stuff, it's meaningless Festivals that are done mechanically, without faith, the Lord hates that, because if we do them mechanically, without faith, thinking that the Lord likes it, that makes him sick. His soul hates that. He's like saying I don't need any of the. I don't need the festivals. I gave them for you because you need them, to help you, remind you about me, because I want you and I want you to give your hearts to me. They're for your benefit, not for my benefit. But if you're starting to do them as if they're for my benefit, I hate that. Don't do it, they're for your benefit.
Speaker 1:That's what he's talking about, because in there he says even if you pray, I'm not listening. Now, no one's going to say see, there's no point in praying. The Lord says don't pray, I'm not listening. No, no, he's not saying don't pray, he's like don't pray, like that. He wants us to pray, he commands us to pray, but he wants us to pray in the right way, peter. There's also that thing isn't there in the book of Esther, where they just generate a festival and the Lord doesn't tell them to do that festival.
Speaker 2:They just generate one but it becomes part of the Bible yeah, absolutely. And then that gets celebrated all this time after, and then that becomes something you're kind of meant to do, because it means you're joining in with the church, and so that becomes this festival, and then Gentiles join in, so it becomes this awesome like missionary opportunity, and there's so many God fearing Gentiles who were Persians Some Persians, though this awesome like missionary opportunity, and there's so many god-fearing gentiles who were persians. Some persians, though, did like with timothy, and they got, like you know, circumcised so they could join in the whole thing, whereas others were just like we'll just send sacrifices that can be offered for us, with all of israel acting like a priest for us. And god's totally cool that, too, he loves cyrus and dariarius, and you know he loves all them, and Caesar also did it because he he was friends with Philo's family, julius Caesar.
Speaker 1:And so he adopted them yeah.
Speaker 2:So they were part of the Julius family, actually the Philo, so he's.
Speaker 1:Julius Alexander Philo.
Speaker 2:So anyway, but there's that that becomes this missionary thing. So that loads. And so people often think about like god, yeah, this idea that secretly, god always hated festivals and he always wanted to get rid of them. And then in the new testament he's like now I've got a chance to get rid of it all. And sometimes they use yeah. So they use isaiah to say like look, he always hated it. And then they use paul to say, look, now he's using paul to get rid of all this stuff once and for all. Uh, but I think it's quite interesting.
Speaker 2:Paul talks about these two frenzy as timothy and titus. And uh, so timothy, uh, he's been studying the scripture since he was little, even though he's a gentile. And then he's like actually I want to go for the whole thing and like get circumcised and, uh, go to jerusalem and then I'll be part of synagogues and things. And then paul's like that's awesome, because I can tell you're doing it for the sake of the gospel and then we can share in that together. That's awesome. And then there's Titus, and when Titus comes with him to see the 12 apostles in Jerusalem and all that, they don't compel him to get circumcised because they're like ah, you're doing your thing totally for Jesus and great, and we love that. And paul's point isn't you should all be like titus and you shouldn't be like timothy. And timothy's terrible because he loves all these pieces. He doesn't say that at all. He loves timothy and he thinks what a great perspective timothy's got and I can't wait to start sharing festivals and things with him. And but then there's also titus who hasn't been celebrating all that and he's like that's fine if he's that, but there's none of this like I've got to compel you and now you've got to stop celebrating. Uh, but in, in fact, really throughout.
Speaker 2:If we read, then, all the bible, we see that when the church gets behind something that brings us all together, it's better that we all do it so that we're all on the same page and we're all part of a church. And uh, jonathan the um, old testament, jonathan, he um, he brings this up when David, he just wants to go off, he's had enough of Israel. He wants to go off into Philistia and just do his own thing, and that would be a wrong way to do the title. So Titus does it in a good way to reach Gentiles, but that would be a wrong way to do it. David's like I'm just, I've had enough, because Saul's always trying to get them. So he's got a point, you'd think.
Speaker 2:But then Jonathan's like, no, don't do that, because I've saved a space for you in the New Moon Festival and you'll be dearly missed. And then David's like, all right, I've got to come back then. So that's a great show of why festivals are so good. So on the one hand, we think about you know. On the one hand, we think about you know, cyrus and Darius and Caesar get to be a part of the church family because of this one festival. In this other one it gets someone who's already in the church to stay in the church when he might go off on his own and just leave church. And then Jonathan's like, don't do that, we've saved a space for you and you've always got a place in church and festivals do that. And if, as long as we're doing it for that reason and not this very legalistic I'm saved because I'm doing all the festivals if we do that, then it's better not to do it at all.
Speaker 1:But you know, if john let's do it the right way. Yeah, let's do it the right way. And I get it that sometimes people they'll go into the supermarket and see all the paraphernalia, say of christmas, but without any reference to jesus, and there's just, you know, like funny little snowmen and like not even father christmas often now, it's just funny snowmen and weird um stuff and sometimes christmas trees and things like that, and of course it's utterly devoid of j Jesus. They don't even play Christmas carols in supermarkets now. They just do these weird pop songs and things. And of course, if a person's like, oh, this is what Christmas is all about, then the Lord will hate that, he'll go. No, it's not what you're doing, that's nonsense.
Speaker 1:But instead of saying so, one reaction might be therefore, as church, let's abandon or like christmas trees or christmas lights or things like that, because supermarkets have them and the supermarkets have no meaning attached to them, so we won't do them.
Speaker 1:But then they think, well, hang on, the supermarkets don't have and maybe don't have any meaning attached to them, but we do and they've copied it off us and in a way, if they've lost the meaning of it, isn't that a rebuke to us, like there was a time when supermarkets actually played carols, literally. I can remember shopping in Tesco's and just being amazed at actual Christmas carols being played, and that was totally normal, and so it's almost as if the culture is celebrating Christmas in a completely vacuous, christless way. That is a rebuke to us, and we should be saying we need to do better in investing the festival with more of Jesus and let us, whatever we need to do, even if we come up with new traditions that do it in a better way. Ok, let's do that. But instead of retreating and abandoning and giving up and being feeble, let us think how can we do this in such a way that we win the whole culture again.