The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation

Episode 60 - The Trinity's Eternal Conversations

• Paul

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How does aligning our language with God's primal speech enable us to connect deeply with reality?

Join us in this thought-provoking episode of Christ-centered Cosmic Civilization as we explore the transformative power of divine language and the eternal Word of God. We'll unravel the profound connection between language, creation, and Christ, examining Jesus' role as the ultimate mediator not just in salvation, but in the very fabric of creation itself.

Discover how this divine mediation empowers us to understand God's communication without the need for special codes or rituals, and how it helps us find our true identities by harmonizing with the universe's original design.

This episode also takes you inside the eternal conversations of the Trinity, shedding light on the infinite fellowship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We'll reflect on scriptural passages from John 17, Hebrews 1, Psalms, and Isaiah to appreciate the depth of intra-Trinitarian dialogue and its implications for our own prayer life.

Additionally, we delve into the concept of divine written records, as mentioned in Revelation and Daniel, discussing their significance and the exclusive authority of the Son to interpret these heavenly scrolls. By the end, you'll understand the vital role of both spoken and written words in our spiritual journey, reminding us to value their recorded form as a lasting testament to our faith.

The theme music is "Wager with Angels" by Nathan Moore

Speaker 1:

Well, welcome to the next episode of the Christ-centered cosmic civilization. And we're continuing to think about language, and we've been thinking about language as a bridge that brings us together, that connects us to the universe. But it is of course Jesus as the Word of God. He is the bridge between God and creation, like the Father's eternal plans were put into physical, tangible form as the heavens and the earth in creation at the very beginning, and it is Christ who, by his word, holds all things together, jesus, the eternal son, is the bridge between God and humanity. He makes it possible for the life of God to be perfectly expressed in human terms, and he is then the mediator. And as we've said several times, when we talk about Jesus as the mediator, there is a tradition, particularly in Western theology, of seeing that entirely in terms of salvation, such that there's the idea that he wouldn't have been mediator if there hadn't been a fall. But of course I don't think we can be persuaded by that idea, because his mediation and bridging and bringing together is in creation itself, before the fall, and will always be the case, even into the never ending story of the new creation. So he is the mediator, and that is important because we don't need special words or codes or rituals to connect to the living God, like as if we needed to discover the correct way of talking or some special ritual that we needed to do, as if bridging the gap is something that we needed to either achieve or complete. Rather, the word has already accomplished that, already bridged the gap, and this word is spoken by God, and even the power of communicating to us. When we're now talking about how does God make himself known to us? It's not as if he does that and then hopes for the best that we're going to be able to do something with that. No, his word speaks to us, giving us ears to hear what he is saying, and that's so important in the ministry of Jesus when he says truly, truly, I'm telling you the truth, and it's faith or trust, or grasping this in the correct way comes by hearing it. So it's as if there is a power in God speaking that bridges the gap, and his communication accomplishes what he wants it to do. It is successful. It's not that he just hopes for the best.

Speaker 1:

Now, then, the word of truth and meaning then, before the universe began. So it's so important for us to realize that our words do not create the true meaning or purpose of the universe or identity for ourselves. So we may get confused about the meaning and purpose of the universe in our minds and we then need to sort that out and acquire or reacquire and correctly assimilate the meaning and purpose of the universe and our own identity, but we don't create it In the deepest sense. The foundational meaning of all things has already been spoken before all things existed. The words, literally the words, the description of the universe came before the universe. And this is something we just keep coming back to, because the universe and history before the universe and history began. The meaning of all things was first and then came all things. So we want to say that truth and meaning is prior to existence.

Speaker 1:

There is so much to unpack in that Truth and meaning is prior to existence and that's a huge clash with the modern world, because the modern world tends to say here is a universe that exists, what meaning can be given to it? And meaning is not inherent in the universe but like arises out of it. But because we know that the universe is this Christ-centered cosmic civilization that it was designed and spoken about and described before it came into existence, truth and meaning is prior to existence. So we don't find a world world that needs our own words or meaning to make sense of it. Rather, we are spoken into a world whose very existence and direction are given to it by the speech of the living God.

Speaker 1:

Our own language is elevated insofar as it participates in that language of God. So that's a huge thing to say that the speech of God that goes before us and before the universe is something that enables us, empowers us rather than diminishes us, because it's and it's that, as we speak, in such a way that we're falling in to harmony with the way the universe really is, the way it's been described eternally, that that has this empowering um character to speech, that it's as if our language gets boosted as it harmonizes with the way things are, the way things they've designed to be. And there's that way in which, when our words do that and go with the grain of reality, there's a kind of power, like we feel it in our gut and in our heart, and we could be moved to tears or shout for joy or just love that eureka moment where things are said that harmonise with reality. So yeah, as human language is informed and shaped by the language of God, the word of God, so our language can begin to come into harmony with the mind of God, the logic of the universe. We've been designed in such a way that we can speak God's speech after him and in doing so we kind of connect with the universe and connect even with our own hearts and minds in this deep, powerful way. In other words, we discover who we are not when we try to define ourselves or listen to the confused and deceitful desires of our own heart. So it's not just that we externally define ourselves as a kind of activity that you know, as if we are just a blank slate to be written upon, nor is it that we simply kind of consult the mess of our own hearts and minds and try to draw conclusions from that, but rather we need to listen to and this is this important thing that we need to listen to this primal speech of God that comes before us prior to our existence. We need to listen to how we are named and described and commissioned by the word of God.

Speaker 1:

Word of God. Our words are confused, a babble, babble on their own, and we need to be taught the grammar of the word of God and that idea that there's a grammar, a right way of speaking and thinking. It's not like there's only one way, as if it all has to be one particular language in a particular style. The grammar of the Word of God is bigger than that, but it's that we want to be tuned into, not just like an earthly version of the word of God, but we want to be tuned into the grammar of God, the eternal, transcendent, cosmic life of God, and to be tuned into that, to learn the grammar of the cosmic, divine empire. Empire or emperor, the emperor really so? Um, the design and meaning of the heavens and the earth was set out from all eternity.

Speaker 1:

The truth about everything that exists and everything that happens is found in jesus christ, the word of the Father. He really is the answer to all our questions. The Father did not silently create the world by mere power, but he spoke the universe into existence. His word defined and described everything. Everything has meaning. Everything was described in words as it was created. Nothing just exists without meaning or purpose. So everything has a proper place and purpose, everything does, and we can't figure that out independently. There is no method, like people often think. Oh well, if we get the right method and we're rigorous enough, we can discover everything. And that is not true. The universe doesn't have an autonomous, self-explaining character. We need to come to the one who holds it together by his powerful word, the one who called it into being by his powerful word, and we need to listen to him in order to make sense of it all. He can make sense of it all. We cannot.

Speaker 1:

So in eternity, before the world was made, god, the Father, son and Holy Spirit shared life together, talking and planning all they would do, and the speech of God within himself comes before any human-to-human speech within the Bible. That's what we see in the Bible, isn't it that before there are any humans speaking, the Trinity is speaking together. Let us make humanity in our image. There is speech and language before ever humans speak Human language, for speaking to each other only comes later. This is so important because in many studies of language, the assumption is that language is a human creation, slowly evolved and developed from animal sounds, through very basic language forms and then on to modern language as we know it, so that there's a kind of belief that you can trace a genealogy of language from nothing to something basic and then on all the way up to human language as we know it.

Speaker 1:

However, in the Bible we first see the Trinity talking to each other, first the Father speaking to or through his word in the speeches of creation. Then, as we've noticed, genesis 1.26, the Trinity confer together about the work of creation, confer together about the work of creation. And then the next speech is God's words of blessing, spoken over or to Adam and Eve in Genesis 1.28, then words of direct instruction and commission to them in Genesis 1.29. And then, finally, he speaks words of instruction to the animals in Genesis 1.30. Similarly, in Genesis, chapter 2, we have the words of God spoken to Adam, first Genesis 2.16 and 17. And then only in Genesis 2.23 do we have the first example of human to human speech. So let's just really appreciate that the Trinity have always spoken together for everlasting ages, for everlasting ages.

Speaker 1:

The very idea that the father and the son genuinely use language to communicate with each other is a very deep point. A common assumption is that they think together in such perfect harmony, with one mind, that they, because of that, that they do not need to say anything to one another. I've heard that often said, like the Trinity obviously do not need to speak to each other because they have a single mind. Some have even suggested that they literally share a single consciousness with no need of any language at all. That's a real problem to me, like the idea that the Father, son and Holy Spirit are actually a single consciousness. A single consciousness, a single will, a single Well, you really end up saying a single personality or person. To me, that is really not the Trinity, that's Unitarianism, that is not the biblical God.

Speaker 1:

The personal nature of the Trinity involves conversation and fellowship. At least it is if we're taking the Bible literally seriously, as it was intended to be read. Obviously, the nature of the eternal and infinite fellowship of the Father and Son in the Spirit is beyond what we can imagine or grasp, but we should nevertheless listen carefully to the way these conversations are described in the Bible. The fact that conversations between the Father and the Son are recorded for us in both the Old Testament and the New Testament gives us a deep appreciation of the foundations of language in the eternal life of God. We can, of course, think of the deep conversations between the Son and the Father in John 17 17, as the son speaks in such depth to his father, looking back to his life with him before the world began, and then looking ahead through all of history. So let's just sample that John 17, 22 to 24. He says in his prayer to the father the glory that you have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one. I in them, and you sent me and love them even as you loved me, father, I desire that they also, whom you've given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. There's more in John 17, of course, but the conversations recorded in the Psalms and the prophets, the Trinitarian conversations in the Psalms and the prophets, suggests that such conversations are not limited to the incarnate life of Jesus, but always go on. I mean, think of the list of intra-Trinitarian conversations listed in Hebrews, chapter 1. I'll read from that. So this is a collection of, I mean, hebrews chapter 1 just states that this is conversation between the father and the son, just absolutely asserted, as if, obviously, that's the case. So what does it say? Hebrews, chapter 1.

Speaker 1:

God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus you are my son. Today, I have become your father. That's the Psalm 2. God also said I will be his father and he will be my son. And when he brought his supreme son into the world, god said let all of God's angels worship him. Regarding the angels, he says he sends his angels like the winds, his servants like flames of fire. But to the son, god says your throne, oh. God says your throne, o. God endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, god, your God, has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else. God also says to the son in the beginning Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands. They will perish, but you remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing. You will fold them up like a cloak and discard them like old clothing, but you are always the same. You will live forever. And God never said to any of the angels sit in the place of honour at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.

Speaker 1:

I mean that's a good selection of clearly intra-Trinitarian conversations, some of which must be before the Incarnation. Now there's other examples Psalm 40, verses 6 to 10, is famous. Sacrifice and offering you do not desire, but a body you have prepared for me, burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. Here I am, I have come. In the scroll of the book it is written of me, and so on. That's an inter-Trinitarian conversation. Isaiah 49, verses 5 to 6, is powerful, isn't it? It says in the eyes of the Lord and my God, and my God has been my strength. He says it's too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles we could examine. I have a whole load of these here.

Speaker 1:

The point is that the eternal plan of God is that every one of us would be caught up into the life of God, with our sins forgiven, our hearts renewed and our minds set free, sharing that eternal life of vibrant fellowship, conversation and purpose of the Trinity. I mean, what we're trying to get to here is the way that the Trinity converse with language before the universe began, during the history of the universe, during the incarnation, still now and forever, and that life of the Trinity that is a verbal, communicative fellowship, speaking to one another and so on. That is the life we have been designed to share in, and so, at the very heart of church is prayer. When we talk to our Father and that's perhaps the central purpose of redemption that we would be able to pray. Pray, our prayers, our words addressed to god, shared with god, are so precious to him that they are stored up in vials in the highest heaven. I love that in revelation 5 8 and revelation 8 4 the way that when we speak to him and I kind of, when we're joining in with the life of the Trinity by speaking to the Father, as we've been designed and purposed to do he stores those words. We might think he records them and keeps those recordings there. It's like they are vials of precious incense, the prayers of the saints. I, just I, I can't stop thinking about that, how seriously he takes it when we speak to him and that this impossible, wonderful reality of language spoken by us human beings and heard, really heard, by the Father in the highest heaven, through Jesus, by the power of the Spirit. When that happens, it is so precious that it's stored up in the highest heaven. Let's have one more. Let's try for something else before we end this episode.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the because we're talking about language before the universe began written words. We don't want to make too strict a distinction between spoken words and written words In Western history. In Western history there's been a tendency to make speech the true use of words, and written words are seen as only secondary, like as if they're an image of spoken words. But I'm not sure that that is sustainable when we come to the Bible. The very nature of the Bible as the written word of God challenges that in so many ways Like the Bible is not really seen as a secondary form of the word of God, but it is, like taken very, very seriously. The recording of God's word on paper, the recording of God's word in creation, in action, even in the incarnation, are all found in the Bible's testimony. And it may be if we think about Psalm 19,. God's word is spoken without words in creation, but Psalm 19 seems to suggest that the written word has a priority over the displayed word in creation. In other words, yeah, in Psalm 19, we have to say that the word of God written has priority. I don't think we can avoid that.

Speaker 1:

The concept of a book or a scroll is used as an analogy for written forms of the word of God, and this is something that's just quite For me. This is something that I just I think about and think about and think about. In the Bible it indicates that there were books written before the universe began. So books or scrolls, the written form of God speaking, existed before the universe began. So the Father, son and Spirit did not only verbally communicate with each other, did not only verbally communicate with each other, but wrote books of words before the universe began.

Speaker 1:

So you might say that is ridiculous. That cannot be true and I feel that too. I feel this. This can't be real, can it? But let's just take the Bible seriously and allow that to sort of sit there for us to. You know, maybe we have trouble digesting it, but tough luck, you know, sort of we maybe. There it is. This is some listen to these things.

Speaker 1:

So let's just begin with Psalm 139, verse 16,. It says and this really is Jesus praying, talking about how he is specially formed in the womb and that how, even when he goes down to hell which he will do on the cross, even then he is not utterly forsaken. Anyway, let's not worry about fully unpacking Psalm 139, but let's just note verse 16. It says you saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. So there, the idea is that the whole of the life of Jesus was recorded in a book. Now we might say that book is the scriptures that every element of the life of Jesus birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, return all of that is recorded in the scriptures, prophesied, predicted in detail. So we might say that, but it does seem to imply it's something other than that, like as if every day, every moment was laid out, written up in it, says your book. And then, but let's build on that revelation 13, verse 8.

Speaker 1:

Revelation 13, verse 8 all the people who belong to this world worship the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the book of life before the world was made. The book of life before the world was made, the book that belongs to the lamb who was slaughtered. So there is a book of life that was written before the world was created. The Lord, god, wrote a book of life before the world was created. Revelation 17, verse 8. The people who belong to this world whose names were not written in the book of life before the world was made. They'll be amazed at the reappearance of the beast who died.

Speaker 1:

There again, the book before the world was made, revelation 5.1. I saw in the right hand of him, the father who sat on the throne, a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. So this scroll is clearly written by the father, because nobody has any authority to even look at it, like even examining it closely. So no creature, no angel can have written such a thing. It is clearly a scroll written by the father and only the son is able to unfurl it and read it and make sense of it and understand it. And then in Daniel 7, verses 9 to 10, it says this I watched as thrones were put in place and the ancient one sat down to judge his clothing, with whiter snow hair, like purest wool. He sat on a fiery throne with wheels of blazing fire and a river of fire was pouring out, flowing from his presence. Millions of angels ministered to him. Many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session and the books were opened. So again, it's a heavenly, heavenly setting, possibly like a day of judgment, but the books were opened like the.

Speaker 1:

There are books that some of what, at least one of which is written before the world began, but it says there are multiple books written by by the trinity, some of which are written before the world began, but they exist in this heavenly realm, books that are prior to humanity.

Speaker 1:

They're not written by human beings the, the scrolls, books, whatever is the medium on which these words are recorded, but they are written, recorded in a sort of visual, tangible form, even before the world began. It's also worth looking at Psalm 40, verse 7, luke 10, verse 20, and Philippians 4, verse 3. That'll be enough for now. We've probably we've raised a lot of questions, a lot to meditate on there, but uh, I say it to indicate that it's a warning to us not to privilege spoken words too highly over written words. It's you know. Of course it's hard to understand what kind of books or written forms the living God might have used before the world began. But the very fact that we are given this kind of language to describe a kind of written, recorded, tangible form of words that isn't merely spoken but exists in a kind of solid form, it's worthy of appreciation and careful thought.