The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Christ is the One in Whom in all things consist and humanity is not the measure of all things. If a defining characteristic of the modern world is disorder then the most fundamental act of resistance is to discover and live according to the deep, divine order of the heavens and the earth.
In this podcast we want to look at the big model of the universe that the Bible and Christian history provides.
It is a mind and heart expanding vision of reality.
It is not confined to the limits of our bodily senses - but tries to embrace levels fo reality that are not normally accessible or tangible to our exiled life on earth.
We live on this side of the cosmic curtain - and therefore the highest and greatest dimensions of reality are hidden to us… yet these dimensions exist and are the most fundamental framework for the whole of the heavens and the earth.
Throughout this series we want to pick away at all the threads of reality to see how they all join together - how they all find common meaning and reason in the great divine logic - the One who is the Logos, the LORD Jesus Christ - the greatest that both heaven and earth has to offer.
Colossians 1:15-23
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The Christ Centred Cosmic Civilisation
Episode 142 - Can the Perfect God Experience Grief, Desire, and Change?
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Diving into the complex theological waters of divine immutability, this episode challenges common misconceptions about what it means for God to be unchanging. While traditional "Perfect Being Philosophy" suggests that any variation or change would introduce imperfection into God's nature, biblical revelation presents a more nuanced picture.
The living Trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—engages in countless activities, relationships, and even experiences emotions like grief without compromising divine perfection. Through careful examination of scripture, we discover that God's immutability doesn't mean static uniformity, but rather perfect consistency of character across infinitely varied divine actions.
Perhaps most striking is Isaiah's reference to God performing His "strange work" and "alien task"—actions that are described as not being natural or agreeable to God, yet remaining perfectly just and righteous. This shatters the philosophical notion that a perfect being must remain in an unvarying state.
We also explore whether divine perfection precludes God from experiencing desire or anticipation. Can the Holy Spirit be grieved by our sin without becoming imperfect? Does the Father look forward to dwelling with His people in the new creation? The biblical witness suggests that these dynamic aspects of God's life don't diminish divine perfection but rather demonstrate it.
The episode concludes with a warning about the dangers of constructing our theology from philosophical abstractions rather than divine revelation. When we define God according to human standards of perfection—even sophisticated ones inherited from Greek philosophy—we risk creating a deity far removed from the living, active God who reveals Himself as perfectly consistent in character while dynamically engaged with His creation.
The theme music is "Wager with Angels" by Nathan Moore
Introduction to God's Immutability
Speaker 1Okay , welcome to the next episode of the Christ-centered cosmic civilization , as we continue our deep exploration of the immutability of God . God does not change the Lord , god is always the same , and we can flee to Christ , the Lord , who is the same yesterday , today and forever in all his ways and works perfect today and forever in all his ways and works perfect . But what we're doing now from this episode is to think about something that is called perfect being philosophy , and this is the idea that if a being is in a state of absolute perfection , then any variation of any kind must be the introduction of imperfection . So any movement or variation or change of any kind must be imperfection . So therefore there can't be any change . That is the simplest way of stating this kind of thought or speculation . So let's imagine the Father , son and Spirit are right now in a state of absolute perfection . So here it's not so much about perfecting all the ways and works and words , it's more to do with the state that they're in , or the being Like . What kind of a state of existence are they in so right now ? So let's imagine they are now in this state of perfection If the father sends the son to earth in the power of the spirit . That's a different situation . Or even we thought before about how the father is with the son and the spirit before the world began in this uncreated glory . Then the universe is created and that's a kind of new situation . Now , is that new situation ? That's a different situation . Something's changed for the three persons who are God , you know . Do they have different relations now with there is something else other than them in existence , than that one living God ? Is this new situation better or worse ? If it's better , then the previous situation was not perfect . If it's worse , then the current situation is not perfect .
Speaker 1So you can say , you know , if any change at all must be a change for better or a change for worse , then a truly absolute perfect being must not change in any way whatsoever , because any change of any kind must be a deviation from perfect . So in one sense we've already explored yeah , of course , like the Father , son and Spirit in everything that they do , in all the relationships and words and works and ways are absolutely perfect . But this philosophical perfect being , theology isn't really about that . It's this other idea that there's a kind of state of being , of perfect being and any there . You can't vary that at all . Um , and in what ? In what ? In one sense we've already thought about that . We're saying like that , the , the , the life and character , the eternal trinity is always the eternal trinity and won't become anything else . So , yeah , but sometimes , um , this kind of perfect being theology gets very , very abstract about the impossibility of any variation or even the possibility of any activities or relationships . So if , if the lord god didn't have a relationship , say , to the universe , then does have a relationship to the universe because the universe has now been created . That creates a kind of before and after , and is one perfect and the other one
Perfect Being Philosophy Explained
Speaker 1imperfect , like so is there , it has that created imperfection . Now , is all this true ?
Speaker 1We need to chew on this for a minute . First of all , even if there are different states of being , it's difficult to use that because I know , like when it's perfect being philosophers , for them being is an unvarying thing . So a state , the state of being , is what something is . So in that sense we would say , yeah , the eternal trinity just always is the eternal trinity . But perfect being philosophy kind of gets into this idea of can a perfect being who is eternal enter into any relationships or have any real relations of any kind , because any new situation that a perfect being is involved in is surely a change from perfection to imperfection , a change from perfection to imperfection .
Speaker 1Can't there be many , many activities and events for the living God that are all equally perfect ? If he is creating the universe and then judging Adam and Eve , isn't creation and judgment both equally perfect actions ? And that the living god's state of life and existence is equally perfect before the creation of the universe , during the creation of the universe , after the creation of the universe , even in a judging and rejecting sin and evil , aren't they all equally perfect situations ? Uh , were the perfections of god in all the , in all the ways and works ? Uh , there is just perfection , even though there are different activities , different relationships , all of that .
Speaker 1So there can be all kinds of changes in activities for the father , son and spirit . But if the son is currently doing one thing rather than another thing , do we have to say that one is less perfect than the other ? So , before the universe began , he's enjoying the glory of the father . That's perfection . Then the father creates the heavens and the earth through the son , in the power of the spirit . That's perfection . Then the son comes into the garden of to judge adam and eve and where are you , adam ? And imposes a curse , and all of that , that's perfection . Do we have to say that any variation must be a decline from perfection to imperfection ? In all the ways and works of the Lord , god , there is perfection . So there could be an infinite number of relationships , activities , words and works of the Trinity , but all of these actions and events , judgments and interactions are perfection , perfection . All of the activities , actions , ways and works are absolutely perfect for the Father , son and Spirit . There's no need to say that any change or variation in activity is a movement from perfection to imperfection .
Speaker 1And if I can dare to kind of open up Isaiah 28 , 21 , there's that deep verse in Isaiah that does seem to indicate that there are actions that the Lord God does that are kind of not exactly natural to him . So he does things that he kind of doesn't , would prefer not to do , and yet even then the Bible would say no . Even even then , even though the though I've heard a preacher , it might even have been Spurgeon who describes speaking of this verse and these works of God , there are certain works of God that go against the grain , for the Father and the Son and the Spirit Go against the grain . It's not their natural preference , it's not their natural preference , and yet , in all their ways , absolute perfection , justice , righteousness , all of that . Anyway , here's the verse , isaiah 28 , 21 .
Speaker 1And it's when the Lord is going to bring judgment and suffering and discipline upon his own people .
Perfection Across Different Divine Activities
Speaker 1And it says the Lord will rise up , as he did at Mount Perazim , he will rouse himself , as in the Valley of Gibeon , to do his work , his strange work , and perform his task , his alien task . And so there , isaiah through Isaiah , alien task . And so there , isaiah , through Isaiah , there's this description of the Lord doing something that is alien to him , that is strange to him , that he doesn't wish to do , and yet , even then , we want to say it is a perfect work . So , john Gill , commenting on this verse , isaiah 28 , 21, . John Gill , you know I love John Gill , but he and he says this , the Lord's strange act , which may be called so because in the above mentioned instances he fought for his people , israel , but in this strange work , work , he would fight against them , and because this was a work , an act of strict justice and awful severity , and not so agreeable to him as acts of mercy , grace and goodness in which he delights .
Speaker 1That really does need to like sink into us , doesn't it ? The idea and it's not just an idea , it's . They're asserted in isaiah 28 21 that there are things that the lord does that are not agreeable to him in in some way , um , and there are some things in which he delight , he delights to do them . There are other things that are alien to him , that he it's not what he wants to do . So there may be activities that the father does through the son , in the power of the spirit , that are strange and alien to him , and we might even say , as john gill says , that they're not agreeable to him . And yet , yet we would never call any of these varying ways and works imperfect . We wouldn't say his , his alien , strange task of isaiah 28 21 is an imperfect one . No , because even in that alien task , even in his strange work of judgment and discipline , his ways and works are perfect , and that is hugely important . In his justice , even in his destructive acts of judgment , of judgment , all that the living God does is perfect and glorious .
Speaker 1No-transcript . Uh , when we say god is perfect , that doesn't rule out any variations in activity at all . It doesn't even rule out the lord doing things that are that he doesn't delight in . There are things that well , as john gill said , they're not agreeable to him . But what ? But whatever he does , whatever specific individual and the multiple you know infinite numbers of relationships , actions , events that he's involved in , in all of them he is perfect in all his ways .
Speaker 1There's another slight uh thing problem for us to examine before we go on , and that is I've come across this in what is called perfect being philosophy of having everything that the perfect being wants or desires and cannot desire , something that the perfect being doesn't currently have , so to be in a state so notice , the Bible talks about the Father , son and Spirit , the Lord , the living God , is perfect in all his ways , in all his words , in all his works . But there's this kind of perfect being philosophy that says it's not so much like that , but that to be in a state of perfection means that you can't be desiring something you don't have , because to desire something that you don't currently have means that you're in a state of imperfection . So , therefore , the idea is , if God is in a state of absolute perfection , god cannot look forward to anything , neither can the Trinity grieve about anything . Because if the Trinity is grieving a current situation , that means imperfection . It's imperfect to be grieving about something , and therefore the car . That can't be the case for a perfect , for a being that is in a state of perfection . There cannot be any looking forward to something in the future , there can't be any desire for something that they do not currently possess and there can't be grief about something that is . They can't be bothered about something . They can't be upset . A perfect being can't be bothered about something . They can't be upset . A perfect being can't be upset about anything , because if they're upset about something or grieved about something or sad about something that's not perfect , so they can't have anything like that in their life .
Speaker 1To be in a state of perfection is to kind of and this goes back to platonist in neo-platonism is a concept of this absolute one , like that idea was . The absolute one does not , is not even aware of the universe , isn't even aware of the heavens and the earth and humanity , because the if the one is aware , even conscious in any way , of the universe , then the imperfections and problems and injustices and ugliness of the universe would impinge upon the one , and then the one is less than perfect because the one would be would dislike the ugliness , imperfection , decay , immorality of the universe . So the , the original concept of this , like perfect being theology , kind of excludes the perfect being from having any real awareness of the universe . But of course christian theologians , who've tried to adapt perfect being from having any real awareness of the universe , but of course christian theologians who've tried to adapt perfect being theology know that that is not accepted . You can't have that , uh , so that they work around that because obviously , uh , the , the , the father , the for god , god , the father so loved the world that he sent his only son and so on . So you can't have no
God's Strange and Alien Tasks
Speaker 1awareness of any kind . But do you see the problem , and let's just focus it on Is it possible we come up with an idea of a perfect being who cannot desire anything that it doesn't have and cannot be grieved by anything that is , let's put it frankly , completely incompatible with the Father , son and Spirit as revealed in the Bible ?
Speaker 1So is it good to look forward to something , to then enjoy it and then even to have the pleasure of remembering it ? So I'm thinking of some things in terms of past , present and future , because it is , is there ? Is there a kind of perfection in looking forward to enjoying something , enjoying it and then remembering that , the enjoyment of it , enjoying it and then remembering that , the enjoyment of it , and and is it if you , if you , if you don't have any , uh any of that ? Is that perfection ? Now , from a greek , that greek philosophical point of view , the idea is to desire something you don't currently have , to hope for something , to look forward , then to enjoy and then to remember . That's obviously imperfection , that's rubbish . But is that true of the Bible ?
Speaker 1Is it good to look forward to something , to then enjoy it , to have the pleasure of remembering of it ? Is there anything imperfect about looking to , about desiring something that you don't currently have ? Is that , is that actually imperfect ? And is it imperfect to be grieved by something that's current , a current state of things , and then to then to look forward to a situation when you will not be grieved about the current situation ? Do I hope that makes sense and I'm asking this tentatively and does the father look forward to the joy of the new creation ? Um , does the father remember the glory , justice , the love of the cross ? The son endured the cross for the joy set before him . He looked forward to the joy that lay ahead of him . And does the eternal son remember the sheer joy of the moment of his resurrection on the third day after the cross ? Does he remember that ? And is that good to him to remember what it was like to be resurrected on that third day ? But let's deal with the Holy Spirit , because I think this is where we really are up against it in that perfect being philosophy .
Speaker 1When the Spirit is grieved by our sin and worldliness , does the Spirit prefer not to be grieved ? Does the Spirit , does the Holy Spirit look forward to the new creation time ? I mean , there's that right at the very end of the Bible when the Spirit and the church and Jesus is I'm coming soon , and then the Spirit and the church has that kind of come Lord Jesus . And there's that wonderful sort of ending to the Bible where the sun and the spirit are kind of looking forward to that new creation future . But does the spirit look forward to a future when all sin and worldliness are finished forever and ever , when we will no longer grieve the eternal Holy Spirit within us ? Would the Spirit prefer not to be grieved ?
Speaker 1In other words , is it imperfect for the Spirit to be grieved with me or you at times when do grieve the spirit , or you , if you grieve the spirit , or the church corporately grieves the spirit . Is that imperfect for the spirit to be grieved for that period of time ? And then there's other times when the spirit is not grieved and the spirit rejoices in us or
Can Perfect Beings Desire or Grieve?
Speaker 1in situations that are going on . And is that imperfect for the spirit to sometimes be grieved Like ? My sin is imperfect .
Speaker 1But if the spirit is grieved by my imperfection , doesn't that establish the perfection of the spirit ? Isn't that the spirit showing that the spirit hates sin ? And isn't that a manifestation of the perfection of the spirit , a manifestation of the perfection of the Spirit ? So if the Spirit is grieved , even just for a short time , by sin and worldliness and hard-heartedness , does the grief of the Spirit damage the perfection of the Holy Spirit , or is that actually a manifestation of the perfection of the Spirit ? Or is that actually a manifestation of the perfection of the spirit ? So yeah , look , surely the spirit is temporarily grieved by the presence of sin , precisely because the spirit is always and eternally perfect in every way and can never be compromised by sin and evil . The spirit will never become hard-hearted towards sin and worldliness as I do . I do become hard-hearted towards sin and worldliness , but the Spirit will never do that . So we'll never change and become hard-hearted towards sin and worldliness , and so the Spirit does not change in perfect holiness and perfect hatred of evil , but when the spirit is grieved by our sin and worldliness and hard-heartedness and stubbornness does , that doesn't make the spirit imperfect , but is a demonstration of the Spirit's perfection .
Speaker 1Now , in a similar way , if the Father is looking forward to life in the new creation , or God , the Son is currently waiting with patient hope and joyful confidence for that final day when justice will be done and all will be renewed and all will be renewed , does this period of waiting and looking forward and yeah , look , I , obviously the way that the father , son and spirit uh wait and look forward is very different than the way we wait or look forward , because I I do strongly believe that the Father , son and Spirit are able to see the future state of things with absolute clarity in a way that we can't , and they plan everything . We might even want to say they meticulously plan every detail . I mean , that's the question of the meticulous control of the Father through the Son by the Spirit . It's something we might get into in another podcast and look at that . But obviously the way they wait and look forward is entirely different to us . But just does the very fact of waiting and looking forward damage the perfection of the Trinity in any way ?
Speaker 1Revelation 21 describes how the throne room of heaven , where the Father sits , will descend down to earth and in some deep and wonderful way , the whole of the heavens and the earth will be united together as a new creation . And then it will be said revelation 21 , verse 3 God's dwelling place is now among the people and he will dwell with them , they will be his people and God himself will be with them and be the God . Now , the father is now enthroned in the highest heaven , and Jesus tells us every time we pray to recall that to mind Our father in heaven . He's in the highest heaven and then his dwelling place Revelation 21 , 3 , will be with his people on earth in a new way . And look , we might all have quite different ideas about how that new creation will be . What is that new way ? How will heaven and earth be united ? How will he dwell with his people at that time ? What does that mean for the everlasting future of humanity ?
Speaker 1Oh sure , we're not even getting into all that , but the fact that the father , son and spirit will live with us in some kind of new and wonderful way in the future is the fact of that , that the father , son and spirit will
Looking Forward to New Creation
Speaker 1live with us in some new and wonderful way in the future . Does that make the Father , son and Spirit any less perfect right here and now ? No , I'd say no . We may be imperfect and the heavens and the earth may need to be purified and made perfect . But that the Father , son and Spirit will dwell with us in this very different way does not mean that the trinity right now is in is any less than perfect and that this the in all , the , all the ways and works and words of the father through the son , by the spirit , total perfection , righteousness , righteousness , goodness , they will always be the eternal trinity , the Father always eternally begettings of the Son and eternally breathing out the Spirit . That's who they are , their character , their life , their ways are always perfect , righteous and just . But the fact that they will live with us in some new and wonderful way in a renewed universe doesn't mean that the way they live with us and relate to us now , it doesn't mean that they are imperfect in some way . Now , we may be imperfect , the universe may be imperfect , but not that the Father , son and Spirit are not imperfect of it , but not that the Father , son and Spirit are not imperfect .
Speaker 1Now , where have we got to ?
Speaker 1I think where we've got to is what we've been trying to relate to , is there is a long tradition of perfect being , religious philosophy , and the idea is to imagine what state a perfect being must be in and then , having done this , the perfect being must remain always in exactly that perfect state and perfect situation , or else the perfect being ceases to be the perfect being .
Speaker 1And there are those who use that to mean that the perfect being , as we've said , can't have any real relations with anything or anyone , at least not in any common sense of action or relationship , because if , like the Neoplatonic One , they just owned that and said , no , the One cannot even have awareness of the universe , because that would introduce a certain level of imperfection into the perfect being . So there is this long tradition of perfect being speculation going right back to those ancient Greek philosophers , but it occurs in different forms in other traditions . And so is it safe and I'll end this episode with this question is it safe to establish an image of God or a conception of God based on what is the most perfect being that we can imagine ? What are the dangers of doing that , of us establishing a standard of perfection as the basis for adoption of God ?